Spanish Punal for a lady?

laEspadaAncha · 4th October 2010, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Gene,
nice example....I hope you don't mind

but the Naval issue knife posted by laEspadaAncha is very similar to a dagger I posted a while ago and would very much like his input on it. Would the dagger , link below, be a Naval issue laEspadaAncha ? Thanks for any info

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=antler

Regards David

Hi David,

With Gene's permission, I'd like to toss in my $.02 on your dagger... I am of the opinion your knife significantly predates not only the FS knife, but Fairbairn & Sykes themselves...

Having a couple P3 (3rd pattern) FS knives myself, the guard is wrong, as it is significantly thicker on P3 FS knives (I excluded the possibility of P1 & P2 FS knives as they were hand-ground in such a fashion that you would see the diamond cross-section flattened at the forte).

Furthermore, it looks as if Jonathan Crookes began using the stamp "Jonathan Crookes & Son" beginning in 1827. According to a collector's guide I have, the Jonathan Crookes stamp or logo with the heart and pistol dates from 1780-1827.

Mark - Re: the book, I don't think it will satiate your appetite for Spanish naval reference material...

The book is a catch-all pictorial reference guide, entitled A World Encyclopedia of Swords, Daggers, and Bayonets written by one Dr. Tobias Capwell. I had bought it following an acquisition of several dozen bayonets, as bayos are (at best) a tertiary interest to me. What I found was not only did it provide a rich and diverse pictorial directory of nearly every knife form imaginable, but the author did an excellent job of describing the evolution of the oldest edged fighting implement known to man over the course of five millennia...

In the book is a chapter in the reference section entitled, "Naval Dirks of the 18th and 19th Centuries," in which this exmaple may be found. What makes it a naval dirk is unknown to me...

Regards,

Chris

katana · 4th October 2010, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Hi David,

With Gene's permission, I'd like to toss in my $.02 on your dagger... I am of the opinion your knife significantly predates not only the FS knife, but Fairbairn & Sykes themselves...

Having a couple P3 (3rd pattern) FS knives myself, the guard is wrong, as it is significantly thicker on P3 FS knives (I excluded the possibility of P1 & P2 FS knives as they were hand-ground in such a fashion that you would see the diamond cross-section flattened at the forte).

Furthermore, it looks as if Jonathan Crookes began using the stamp "Jonathan Crookes & Son" beginning in 1827. According to a collector's guide I have, the Jonathan Crookes stamp or logo with the heart and pistol dates from 1780-1827.

Regards,

Chris

Hi Chris

,
thank you very much for taking the time to reply. Yes, that makes it much older than I thought

It seems that my knife could exactly date to 1827 .....and there was me convincing myself that this was, perhaps, a surplus/copy F.S. blade hilted for the Scottish/hunting market

....still, in this instance ...its nice to be so wrong

Kind Regards David

katana · 4th October 2010, 10:17 PM

Gene,
this may be relavent to you if you decide to purchase a similar example.... discovered that 'England' was added to the knife markings ....if imported to the US.....

"..... US Tariff Act of 1890 requires country of origin markings on imports to the USA. Such markings were never used before that......"

Unfortunately that must date my example after 1890 ....which conflicts with the pistol / heart trademark dating ....unless I missing something.

Regards David

M ELEY · 5th October 2010, 05:23 AM

Hello Chris, thanks for replying

Yes, such naval references are very hard to come by. For the most part, it has been determined with some authority that Spanish navaja definitely went to sea. Certainly other knives, much like many types of swords, saw sea service, if not with the Spanish navy itself, certainly on many merchantmen of the period. Such knives would have served for defense and utility purposes. It is interesting to note that where other countries were banning large fighting knives for sailors by the mid-19th c (other than tiny-bladed dress dirks or pocket knives), it is well established that the Spanish sailors were still carrying some hefty folding knives/navaja. I see no reason not to believe that the piece being discussed couldn't have seen sea service. Albacete isn't a port city, but not too awefully far from the coast.
P.S. I'll check out that book...

Atlantia · 12th October 2010, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

Hello Chris, thanks for replying

Yes, such naval references are very hard to come by. For the most part, it has been determined with some authority that Spanish navaja definitely went to sea. Certainly other knives, much like many types of swords, saw sea service, if not with the Spanish navy itself, certainly on many merchantmen of the period. Such knives would have served for defense and utility purposes. It is interesting to note that where other countries were banning large fighting knives for sailors by the mid-19th c (other than tiny-bladed dress dirks or pocket knives), it is well established that the Spanish sailors were still carrying some hefty folding knives/navaja. I see no reason not to believe that the piece being discussed couldn't have seen sea service. Albacete isn't a port city, but not too awefully far from the coast.
P.S. I'll check out that book...

Well, now you mention it, I was watching some movie a while back and a spanish sailor/brigand/pirate had a big single edged knife rather like my one above.
Not that that is exactly 'proof' LOL! But it did get me thinking, and they would have made a good utility/weapon.

Atlantia · 12th October 2010, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

Gene,
this may be relavent to you if you decide to purchase a similar example.... discovered that 'England' was added to the knife markings ....if imported to the US.....

"..... US Tariff Act of 1890 requires country of origin markings on imports to the USA. Such markings were never used before that......"

Unfortunately that must date my example after 1890 ....which conflicts with the pistol / heart trademark dating ....unless I missing something.

Regards David

Thanks mate. I can't remember who has it, but one of the dealers I know has one for sure. I'll keep an eye open for it!
Best
Gene

4th October 2010, 10:17 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Gene, this may be relavent to you if you decide to purchase a similar example.... discovered that 'England' was added to the knife markings ....if imported to the US..... "..... US Tariff Act of 1890 requires country of origin markings on imports to the USA. Such markings were never used before that......" Unfortunately that must date my example after 1890 ....which conflicts with the pistol / heart trademark dating ....unless I missing something. Regards David

5th October 2010, 05:23 AM	#4
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,141	Hello Chris, thanks for replying Yes, such naval references are very hard to come by. For the most part, it has been determined with some authority that Spanish navaja definitely went to sea. Certainly other knives, much like many types of swords, saw sea service, if not with the Spanish navy itself, certainly on many merchantmen of the period. Such knives would have served for defense and utility purposes. It is interesting to note that where other countries were banning large fighting knives for sailors by the mid-19th c (other than tiny-bladed dress dirks or pocket knives), it is well established that the Spanish sailors were still carrying some hefty folding knives/navaja. I see no reason not to believe that the piece being discussed couldn't have seen sea service. Albacete isn't a port city, but not too awefully far from the coast. P.S. I'll check out that book...