vikingsword?!? ID needed

[Matchlock]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Ist das ein Franken klingen ?????

Very well possible, Jim,

In any case it seems to be a 'wurmbunte Klinge' and may well be as early as the 5th or 6th century. Higher contrasted close up pics would sure help a lot.

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Cornelis,

Please look at the pommel of the Landsknecht dagger in the attached picture, ex Harold L. Peterson collection (Christie's, 1978), ca. 1535, sold Bonhams, 29 April 2010.

This is exactly what the pommel of your relic Katzbalger originally looked like.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,
of course Iam very familiar with this type of pommel, I had a landsknecht sword with a developed hilt in my collection with exactly the same pommel.(I will try to find a picture of it)
however I must say it is not the same pommel as the excavated sword has.
in combination The strong tapering tang, the lack of a ricasso, the shoulder of blade had fitted into the cross block, the spatulate point and parallel edges makes me date this sword (much) earlier then the 16thC. but when I really don't know, how can one tell?

best regards

[Matchlock]

You asked how one could tell?

By 30 years of studying and experience. based on 300,000 photos taken in the best museums and their reserve collections, plus a private library comprising 3,000 books and catalogs.
There also were Katzbalgers with single edged blades, as well as Katzbalger sabers, especially in the later period of that type of Landsknecht swords, so your blade is not unusual at all.

Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Matchlock

You asked how one could tell?

By 30 years of studying and experience. based on 300,000 photos taken in the best museums and their reserve collections, plus a private library comprising 3,000 books and catalogs.
There also were Katzbalgers with single edged blades, as well as Katzbalger sabers, especially in the later period of that type of Landsknecht swords, so your blade is not unusual at all.

Best,
Michael

Hi Michael,

I absolutely don't doubt your knowledge, however sometimes we disagree but that is good for the debate. herewith a katzbalger with an Estoc blade.
A katzbalger degen.

kind regards from Holland

[Matchlock]

Hi Cornelis,

I do not have the least problem with you disagreeing now and then; that's what brings life into our discussions after all.

Nevertheless I am sorry to have to differ from the description of the item you posted yesterday. This is by no means a Katzbalgerdegen but clearly an estoc for horsemen. It's much too long to be toted by an infantry soldier like a Landsknecht; remember Katzbalgers are only about 90 cm long. The open Brezen-Parierstange (pretzel shaped quillons) is not unusual at all for that type of dangerous thrusting weapon of ca. 1540-50

Remember the famous GIECH estoc, an earlier type (ca. 1520) than yours, sold Sotheby's in 1974, and again from the Visser collection in 1990? I attach scans and description. BTW, it fetched 15,000 euro in 1990 and would probably double its price today.


Best,
Michael

[cornelistromp]

Hi Michael,

you are absolutely right about the description it is by no means a katzbalger degen or landsknecht degen. This type of sword belongs indeed to the German sword style of estoc.
As you definitely know as well they are produced in Graz, Judenberg and Passau. there are a number of examples preserved in the Grazer Zeughaus. also these type of estocs were carried by Austrian harquebusiers and Hungarian hussars on horseback. in the wars with the Turks.
about the date we disagree..................... why not
The closed 8 ring guard is a later development of the open 8 guard.
the later estocs also have an integral cap at the quillion block covering the ricasso to keep water out of the scabbard and sometimes also an octagonal guard plate.
I think that the estocs with closed ringguards and scabbard throats can be dated in the second half of the 16thC, Also the Giegh/Visser one and the open 8 shaped quards with the caps in the first half of the 16thC.(similar as the developement of the katzbalger hilt in the 16thC)
lit:P.Krenn 1997 pp30-31


kind regards from Holland