Gaucho knife for ID please: Argentine 'La Movediza'

laEspadaAncha · 2nd October 2010, 06:00 PM

I see in the ten minutes it took for me to cobble together my last post, the "Plate" vs. "Plata" issue has already been put to rest...

Atlantia · 2nd October 2010, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

I see in the ten minutes it took for me to cobble together my last post, the "Plate" vs. "Plata" issue has already been put to rest...

Thak you so much!

This is just brilliant news all round. Not only is it as old as I dared hope (At least pre 1963) Also solid continental silver mounts, not silver 'plate' (DOH!) as I thought when I bought it!!
Brilliant!
Are those stamps in chronological order, by any chance?
If so, which end is earliest?

Best
Gene

Chris Evans · 3rd October 2010, 03:03 AM

Gene,

Your have a nice collectable piece in that knife and Chris pretty much covered it well.

Here is what the manufacturer was named after: http://www.lapiedramovediza.com.ar/

The article tells us that the rock tumbled down in 1912 and was replaced by a replica in 2007.

Cheers
Chris

Atlantia · 8th October 2010, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Evans

Gene,

Your have a nice collectable piece in that knife and Chris pretty much covered it well.

Here is what the manufacturer was named after: http://www.lapiedramovediza.com.ar/

The article tells us that the rock tumbled down in 1912 and was replaced by a replica in 2007.

Cheers
Chris

Hi Chris,
So 'La Movediza' is a moving rock?
What is the article saying, the rock pivotted and moved, then eventually fell?

Best
Gene

Chris Evans · 10th October 2010, 12:08 AM

Hi Gene,

That 300 ton rock, a freak of nature, stood in a precarious state of equilibrium for a very long time, centuries, maybe even longer, until it lost whatever little support it relied upon and tumbled down the cliff. As to its name ` La Movediza' I am at a loss: In the local Araucan indian language, the word `Tandil' and the name of the town, refers to an unstable rock. When translated into Spanish probably Movediza was the best they could come up with, although it is unclear to me whether it ever trembled or gave any indication of movement. There is mention of an unconfirmed report that the terrible dictator, Juan Manuel Rosas, for reasons unknown, tried to knock the stone down but was unsuccessful, despite using a very large number of horses.

As an aside, Rosas who ruled with a very bloody hand, had strict regulations about knives and facons amongst his workers and even had himself flogged for wearing a knife due to a lapse of memory. His intention was to show that no one, not even himself was above the law. Rosas was an extraordinarily tough and ruthless warrior and reputedly the finest horseman in that part of the world. He gained great notoriety for his rule through terror and the use of death suqads. Nevertheless, he manage to create a basic Argentinean sense of identity, out of anarchy, and which later heads of state amplified to create a unified nation.

It is worth reading about his life and times to gain a broader understanding of 19th century Pampean life and the role of the knife.

Cheers
Chris

Ron Anderson · 10th October 2010, 12:54 AM

Hi Atlantia

I have this exact knife. At least I think so. It just stamped Industria Argentia, no Movediza. When I researched online I found similar knives online that were described as 1930s.

Chris Evans · 10th October 2010, 03:14 AM

Hi Ron,

The general practice in Argentina was, and remains for `plateros' (silversmiths) to manufacture furnishings with which they mount trade blades from various sources. Until the 2nd world war, blades were obtained from Europe, mostly from Germany and France. With the hostilities, the importation of blades largely, or entirely, ceased, and local manufacturers commenced turning out blades in the township of Tandil, some 200kms from the city of Buenos Aires. `La Movediza' was regarded as one of better know brands, though none of the locally made blades was as highly thought of as the famous imports.

So a Creole knife is a composite work of a single, or even a number of `plateros' and a blade manufacturer. As such ascribing a single identity to them is a dubious exercise. Often they wear the name of the retailer that sold it. With the passing of time, highly esteemed old Euro blades habe been re-mounted in expensive new furnishings, so apart from the blade one cannot even be sure of the age of the piece as a whole.

Some time ago and in another thread, Gonzalo mentioned the currently reprehensible practice of cutting down old military bayonets, mounting them in rich furnishings and selling them as antique 'facones'.

Cheers
Chris

Atlantia · 14th October 2010, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Anderson

Hi Atlantia

I have this exact knife. At least I think so. It just stamped Industria Argentia, no Movediza. When I researched online I found similar knives online that were described as 1930s.

Hi Ron,

I've noticed doing a bit of research, that there seem to be many similar knives with 'alpacca' mounts. Even identical movediza ones. I wonder if they are later, made with cheaper 'white copper' instead of Silver?

Best
Gene

2nd October 2010, 06:00 PM	#1
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	I see in the ten minutes it took for me to cobble together my last post, the "Plate" vs. "Plata" issue has already been put to rest...

3rd October 2010, 03:03 AM	#3
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Gene, Your have a nice collectable piece in that knife and Chris pretty much covered it well. Here is what the manufacturer was named after: http://www.lapiedramovediza.com.ar/ The article tells us that the rock tumbled down in 1912 and was replaced by a replica in 2007. Cheers Chris

10th October 2010, 12:08 AM	#5
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Gene, That 300 ton rock, a freak of nature, stood in a precarious state of equilibrium for a very long time, centuries, maybe even longer, until it lost whatever little support it relied upon and tumbled down the cliff. As to its name ` La Movediza' I am at a loss: In the local Araucan indian language, the word `Tandil' and the name of the town, refers to an unstable rock. When translated into Spanish probably Movediza was the best they could come up with, although it is unclear to me whether it ever trembled or gave any indication of movement. There is mention of an unconfirmed report that the terrible dictator, Juan Manuel Rosas, for reasons unknown, tried to knock the stone down but was unsuccessful, despite using a very large number of horses. As an aside, Rosas who ruled with a very bloody hand, had strict regulations about knives and facons amongst his workers and even had himself flogged for wearing a knife due to a lapse of memory. His intention was to show that no one, not even himself was above the law. Rosas was an extraordinarily tough and ruthless warrior and reputedly the finest horseman in that part of the world. He gained great notoriety for his rule through terror and the use of death suqads. Nevertheless, he manage to create a basic Argentinean sense of identity, out of anarchy, and which later heads of state amplified to create a unified nation. It is worth reading about his life and times to gain a broader understanding of 19th century Pampean life and the role of the knife. Cheers Chris

10th October 2010, 12:54 AM	#6
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Atlantia I have this exact knife. At least I think so. It just stamped Industria Argentia, no Movediza. When I researched online I found similar knives online that were described as 1930s.

10th October 2010, 03:14 AM	#7
Chris Evans Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Australia Posts: 685	Hi Ron, The general practice in Argentina was, and remains for `plateros' (silversmiths) to manufacture furnishings with which they mount trade blades from various sources. Until the 2nd world war, blades were obtained from Europe, mostly from Germany and France. With the hostilities, the importation of blades largely, or entirely, ceased, and local manufacturers commenced turning out blades in the township of Tandil, some 200kms from the city of Buenos Aires. `La Movediza' was regarded as one of better know brands, though none of the locally made blades was as highly thought of as the famous imports. So a Creole knife is a composite work of a single, or even a number of `plateros' and a blade manufacturer. As such ascribing a single identity to them is a dubious exercise. Often they wear the name of the retailer that sold it. With the passing of time, highly esteemed old Euro blades habe been re-mounted in expensive new furnishings, so apart from the blade one cannot even be sure of the age of the piece as a whole. Some time ago and in another thread, Gonzalo mentioned the currently reprehensible practice of cutting down old military bayonets, mounting them in rich furnishings and selling them as antique 'facones'. Cheers Chris