A Multiple Barreled Polish Organ Gun, ca. 1700

Jim McDougall · 1st October 2010, 04:20 PM

Hi Michael,
And in kind that was just the kind of response I was looking for!!!

It is really fascinating to learn that the term 'caliber' is derived from these lighter muskets, and the note on the premeasured charges in bandoleers...the twelve apostles. It is amazing the dimension added by learning these contemporary colloquialisms!

Thanks so much Michael!
Route 66 calls, and two days til we roll again

All the best,
Jim

Matchlock · 1st October 2010, 04:48 PM

Thank you again, Jim!

Here are some of the engravings from de Geyn's manual of exercise Wapenhandelinghe ..., 1608.

The musketeer wears a hat, the caliver man (Schütze) an iron Schützenhäubel.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 1st October 2010, 05:00 PM

The rest.

Jim McDougall · 1st October 2010, 07:31 PM

Thanks very much Michael, great illustrations as always!!! This is like having access to the most fantastic books and art showing all of these.

I have just noticed, on the 'caliver man', that curious shape in the powder 'horn'. It seems this is very much the shape I have seen on Moroccan powder flasks, and perhaps the strong trade influences between England and Europe along that Meditteranean littoral brought this in as well as the gun types?

I need to find a photo of one of these Moroccan powder flasks (if I am using the correct term).

All the best,
Jim

Matchlock · 1st October 2010, 08:07 PM

Hi Jim,

Good parallel concerning the Moroccan flasks but actually the German ones were a whole lot different.

For more on 16th and 17th c. German musketeers' and caliver men's flasks, please see my older threads

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...asks+musketeer

and especially

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...r+flasks+frogs

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 3rd October 2010, 07:11 PM

The short and swamped muzzle sections denote the exact dating.

Interestingly enough, Indian organ guns used to look very similar to the one on the right even in the 18th and 19th centuries, only their muzzle sections were longer being based on the German style of ca. 1520.

Best,
Michael

Jim McDougall · 4th October 2010, 01:36 PM

Fascinating illustrations Michael!
The DaVinci works have always been amazing and its hard to imagine how far ahead of his times he was. These multiple barrel weapons remond me a lot of the rocket launching units used in WWII.

Am I correct in assuming these multiple barrels were typically discharged simultaneously? It seems as if that would be a pretty much single op situation, as it must have horrendous to try to get these reloaded.
I would imagine truly psychologically devastating at initial blast though.
Sort of the scatter gun effect.

It seems that in terms of firing, single barrel discharge would have been a real challenge. Case in point, in the early 19th century, as percussion caps were invented, the revolving cylinder 'pepperbox' pistols had the right concept ideally, but there were problems with simultaneous discharge, which had of course less than desirable effect for the user. These were also notorious for misfires.
For these larger heavy ordnance type weapons, the ancestor of the 'machine gun' was the Gatling gun for multiple fire in my understanding.

It seems there are a number of guns I have seen, and I cant place them offhand, which were flintlock personal weapons with a number of barrels, I think four, arranged in this fanned fashion. I cant recall how these functioned in firing.

All the best,
Jim

1st October 2010, 04:48 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Musketeer and Caliver Man in 1608 Thank you again, Jim! Here are some of the engravings from de Geyn's manual of exercise Wapenhandelinghe ..., 1608. The musketeer wears a hat, the caliver man (Schütze) an iron Schützenhäubel. Best, Michael Attached Images

1st October 2010, 05:00 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The rest. Attached Images

3rd October 2010, 07:11 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Two Organ Guns by Leonardo da Vinci, ca. 1500 The short and swamped muzzle sections denote the exact dating. Interestingly enough, Indian organ guns used to look very similar to the one on the right even in the 18th and 19th centuries, only their muzzle sections were longer being based on the German style of ca. 1520. Best, Michael Attached Images

1st October 2010, 04:20 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,660	Hi Michael, And in kind that was just the kind of response I was looking for!!! It is really fascinating to learn that the term 'caliber' is derived from these lighter muskets, and the note on the premeasured charges in bandoleers...the twelve apostles. It is amazing the dimension added by learning these contemporary colloquialisms! Thanks so much Michael! Route 66 calls, and two days til we roll again All the best, Jim

1st October 2010, 07:31 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,660	Thanks very much Michael, great illustrations as always!!! This is like having access to the most fantastic books and art showing all of these. I have just noticed, on the 'caliver man', that curious shape in the powder 'horn'. It seems this is very much the shape I have seen on Moroccan powder flasks, and perhaps the strong trade influences between England and Europe along that Meditteranean littoral brought this in as well as the gun types? I need to find a photo of one of these Moroccan powder flasks (if I am using the correct term). All the best, Jim

1st October 2010, 08:07 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Jim, Good parallel concerning the Moroccan flasks but actually the German ones were a whole lot different. For more on 16th and 17th c. German musketeers' and caliver men's flasks, please see my older threads http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...asks+musketeer and especially http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...r+flasks+frogs Best, Michael

4th October 2010, 01:36 PM	#7
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,660	Fascinating illustrations Michael! The DaVinci works have always been amazing and its hard to imagine how far ahead of his times he was. These multiple barrel weapons remond me a lot of the rocket launching units used in WWII. Am I correct in assuming these multiple barrels were typically discharged simultaneously? It seems as if that would be a pretty much single op situation, as it must have horrendous to try to get these reloaded. I would imagine truly psychologically devastating at initial blast though. Sort of the scatter gun effect. It seems that in terms of firing, single barrel discharge would have been a real challenge. Case in point, in the early 19th century, as percussion caps were invented, the revolving cylinder 'pepperbox' pistols had the right concept ideally, but there were problems with simultaneous discharge, which had of course less than desirable effect for the user. These were also notorious for misfires. For these larger heavy ordnance type weapons, the ancestor of the 'machine gun' was the Gatling gun for multiple fire in my understanding. It seems there are a number of guns I have seen, and I cant place them offhand, which were flintlock personal weapons with a number of barrels, I think four, arranged in this fanned fashion. I cant recall how these functioned in firing. All the best, Jim