Silver inlayed 19thC Mexican Spur with Stars/Stripes?

[laEspadaAncha]

My $.02 - which is trading at just under a penny in today's currency markets - is that they are of South American origin, given the monster rowels and rich decorative work... maybe Argentine, or Chilean?

There was a somewhat similar pair posted here a couple years ago:

Click

[Atlantia]

Hi laEspadaAncha

Thanks, I think Tims are really nice! And still a pair!!

[laEspadaAncha]

Sure thing...

Living here in the Southwest, it's not that unusual to encounter spurs at auctions, estate sales, etc... there are particular stylistic cues associated with "Texas spurs," "California spurs," and "Mexican spurs." Similarly, I think the giant 437-spoked rowels almost always point towards a South American origin. Nice example, BTW... and even single spurs display quite nicely when placed with knives or swords from their respective place of origin.

Got Gaucho?

[Jim McDougall]

Now this is esoterica Gene!!! and actually, I think spurs are very much part of the study of arms and armor, as from medieval times they were actually a sign of rank. As for tenuous, not at all with the great tie in with this classic movie!! probably more for the actors than the actual content.
The spur didnt really kill the guy with a spur (so we wont need to worry about activists seeking to outlaw spurs now but actually threw it at him, presenting the distraction needed for the deadly gunshot.

This example looks to me markedly Mexican, though I cannot claim any knowledge or even awareness toward this topic. As noted by Chris, the presence of spurs is well seated in American cowboy tradition, which has of course borne its origins in the colorful history of New Spain. This heritage in turn carries the traditions from medieval times and chivalry brought from the Iberian Peninsula.

I think that the distinct appearance and elaborate decoration may be more of a Spanish influence, more than regional application. While the huge rowel signifies the 'espeula grande' type , it seems more likely Spanish Southwest or Mexico, though certainly the gaucho examples are well noted.

The use of stars in linear motif would not signify American association in my opinion though, as these stars are known to be used in many types of insignia, flags and regalia. As spurs were often custom made, there seem to be any number of possibilities.

It is very true that the styles and flamboyance of Mexico in the material culture of its frontier and Spanish Colonial history is one of the very things that make the study of these arms and accoutrements so exciting in my opinion. The Mexican vaquero was stylish indeed, as were the Mexican cowboys who carried the traditions forward.

Returning to the movie images noted by Gene, who can forget the rugged and elaborately distinct character and flamboyantly festooned bandidos and revolutionaries in western movies with huge sombreros, bandoleers, flared pants and clanking rowel spurs. While some might see them as cartooned cliche's, I see beyond that and see the spirited and rugged caballeros who formed the character of not only Mexico, but very much America itself.

It would be great to learn more on spurs and thier history, and think it is an excellent topic to pursue further! Outstanding Gene, thank you!!

Alan, good one there from OZ, love the kangaroo kuddlers!!!

Chris, excellent note on the frequency of seeing spurs around, and I can formly attest to that as the 'bookmobile' courses through the Southwest constantly.

All the best,
Jim

[Gonzalo G]

Hi Gene,

It looks like a very fine spurs from Amozoc, in the State of Puebla, Mexico. Usually, the inlaids are made with silver. Search on the internet for "espuelas de Amozoc" (spurs from Amozoc). You will get additional info.
Regards

Gonzalo

PD: There are not many countries in America with a "cowboy" tradition. Only those who were herders in an important measure, like Argentina, Uruguay and Mexico. The cowboy tradition from the USA originated in Mexico, mainly on those states taken from our country, like Texas, Colorado and Nuevo Mexico.

[laEspadaAncha]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

PD: There are not many countries in America with a "cowboy" tradition. Only those who were herders in an important measure, like Argentina, Uruguay and Mexico. The cowboy tradition from the USA originated in Mexico, mainly on those states taken from our country, like Texas, Colorado and Nuevo Mexico.

Hmmm... Not sure how that bit of subjective historical interpretation found its way onto a forum intended for the discussion of ethnographic weapons, but as an 8th-generation Californio I can at least be grateful you left the Bear Flag Republic off your list. I might also add, the Spanish Californios shared in the creation of the vaquero tradition in their herding of the 400,000 cattle that were maintained by the Missions and privately-held rancheros.

[Gonzalo G]

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Hmmm... Not sure how that bit of subjective historical interpretation found its way onto a forum intended for the discussion of ethnographic weapons, but as an 8th-generation Californio I can at least be grateful you left the Bear Flag Republic off your list. I might also add, the Spanish Californios shared in the creation of the vaquero tradition in their herding of the 400,000 cattle that were maintained by the Missions and privately-held rancheros.

Thank you for conffirming my "subjective" statements. Of course, "cowboying" has a spanish, and latter a ver mexican origins on this geographical strip (there were not cattle, horses or spurs in America before the spanish), from the Gul of México to the Pacific, but I was not sure if I should include California. Now I will. And cowboy tradition has a lot to do with the previous posts and with the subject of spurs, since it permits to identify stylistic origins, as it is in the case of the Texan saddle, spurs and hats. Naturally, Mexico and the USA always had a very strong intercultural influence, and this is not a shame.

There were not "spanish" in California when it passed to the USA in the mid 19th century, since Meico got its independence since 1821 and all the spaniards were expelled from the country, though in the USA to this day they call mexicans as "hipanic" and this creates conffussion about national identities.

On other side, the size and styling of those rowels is NOT privative from South America, and in fact were very comon in south of Mexico as they have the same spanish origin. Anybody can check it, as there is abundant iconography of Chinacos using that kind of spurs. It is true that there are a great deal of variations among them through the geographical space and time span, but those spurs were very common at the end of the 18th century, beginning of the19th century, and in the south Mexico there were used to the times of the French invasion.


Regards

Gonzalo

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Gonzalo G

Hi Gene,

It looks like a very fine spurs from Amozoc, in the State of Puebla, Mexico. Usually, the inlaids are made with silver. Search on the internet for "espuelas de Amozoc" (spurs from Amozoc). You will get additional info.
Regards

Gonzalo

PD: There are not many countries in America with a "cowboy" tradition. Only those who were herders in an important measure, like Argentina, Uruguay and Mexico. The cowboy tradition from the USA originated in Mexico, mainly on those states taken from our country, like Texas, Colorado and Nuevo Mexico.

Brilliant, thanks Gonzalo. Have just had a search Thank heavens for google translate!

[laEspadaAncha]

Good morning Gene (at least it is here on the beautiful Pacific ),

FWIW, I still am rather confident of a South American attribution, as evidenced by both the size and styling of the rowels (the round pointy wheels), neither of which resemble the style of Mexican spurs from Amozoc. Neither is the use of silver an identifier of Mexican origin, especially considering the prolific abundance of silver in the Plata region.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Now this is esoterica Gene!!! and actually, I think spurs are very much part of the study of arms and armor, as from medieval times they were actually a sign of rank. As for tenuous, not at all with the great tie in with this classic movie!! probably more for the actors than the actual content.
The spur didnt really kill the guy with a spur (so we wont need to worry about activists seeking to outlaw spurs now but actually threw it at him, presenting the distraction needed for the deadly gunshot.

This example looks to me markedly Mexican, though I cannot claim any knowledge or even awareness toward this topic. As noted by Chris, the presence of spurs is well seated in American cowboy tradition, which has of course borne its origins in the colorful history of New Spain. This heritage in turn carries the traditions from medieval times and chivalry brought from the Iberian Peninsula.

I think that the distinct appearance and elaborate decoration may be more of a Spanish influence, more than regional application. While the huge rowel signifies the 'espeula grande' type , it seems more likely Spanish Southwest or Mexico, though certainly the gaucho examples are well noted.

The use of stars in linear motif would not signify American association in my opinion though, as these stars are known to be used in many types of insignia, flags and regalia. As spurs were often custom made, there seem to be any number of possibilities.

It is very true that the styles and flamboyance of Mexico in the material culture of its frontier and Spanish Colonial history is one of the very things that make the study of these arms and accoutrements so exciting in my opinion. The Mexican vaquero was stylish indeed, as were the Mexican cowboys who carried the traditions forward.

Returning to the movie images noted by Gene, who can forget the rugged and elaborately distinct character and flamboyantly festooned bandidos and revolutionaries in western movies with huge sombreros, bandoleers, flared pants and clanking rowel spurs. While some might see them as cartooned cliche's, I see beyond that and see the spirited and rugged caballeros who formed the character of not only Mexico, but very much America itself.

It would be great to learn more on spurs and thier history, and think it is an excellent topic to pursue further! Outstanding Gene, thank you!!

Alan, good one there from OZ, love the kangaroo kuddlers!!!

Chris, excellent note on the frequency of seeing spurs around, and I can formly attest to that as the 'bookmobile' courses through the Southwest constantly.

All the best,
Jim

Sorry mate, how did I miss this thread continuing?

As always Jim, great historical context, thank you
Even over here you do occasionally see antique 'American' (north and south) Spurs, but I've never seen one of this quality!

As for the cliche ridden movie depictions of Mexican cowboys, I still love them!
Of course I'm not a kid any more and I understand they are often more pantomine than historically accurate, in fact mostly the actors are of course not even Mexican!
Hmm, I think I'm going to have to have an afternoon of classic westerns!
Perhaps the 3 great Eastwood 'man with no name' outings?
Gian Maria Volonté as Ramon and Indio is a total revelation!

And Eli Walach's Tuco 'There are two types of spurs, those that come in through the door, and those that come in through the window'

Back on subject though, hopefully others will show their spurs too, as this is an interesting study.

Best
Gene

[Berkley]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

hopefully others will show their spurs too, as this is an interesting study.

I agree that this is a most interesting study. Here is my lonely contribution to the discussion, a typical Mexican working spur with silver accents, nearly in relic condition I fear, and of no great distinction -

While attempting to learn something on the subject, I discovered an interesting old book online, The History of the Spur by Charles de Lacy: http://www.archive.org/stream/histor...ge/n7/mode/2up
I gather from an afternoon perusing the web that the espuela grande with a large multi-tined sunburst rowel is originally a Spanish design, in turn derived from Northern European versions such as this Cavalier spur shown in de Lacy:

Since they are Spanish in origin, the sunburst-rowelled spurs appear to be found throughout Mexico and South America. A brief search of the web produces these specimens, described (clockwise from top left) as South American, Argentine, and Chilean.

If identification of the place of origin of any particular piece is the goal, regional variations in decorative patterns may be more important than the design of the spur.
Alas, I am unlikely to ever be fortunate enough to possess even one of these beautiful espuelas.

[Atlantia]

Big welcome to the thread Berkley.

Great research, and a nice 'working' Spur BTW! (In fact it seems rather fancy for just a working spur!)
So it looks as though my example could be either from Mexico or further south?
I wonder how unusual these elaborate examples are?

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

Sure thing...

Living here in the Southwest, it's not that unusual to encounter spurs at auctions, estate sales, etc... there are particular stylistic cues associated with "Texas spurs," "California spurs," and "Mexican spurs." Similarly, I think the giant 437-spoked rowels almost always point towards a South American origin. Nice example, BTW... and even single spurs display quite nicely when placed with knives or swords from their respective place of origin.

Got Gaucho?

LOL, It's with my Argentinian gaucho knife now! Looks great, you're right