English sword/hanger - Parker Field & Sons

Ron Anderson · 30th September 2010, 06:41 AM

Hi Jim

Do you have or do you know about a series of volumes entitled 'The List of changes in British military equipment'?

It's edited by Ian Skennerton. It's the British miliatry list of changes on edged weapons and accoutrements from about the 1860s to the 1920s? Very valuable.

However, I think the changes referred to here precede the published list.

Nonetheless, if you don't have the books, they're worth getting for any researcher. There are 5 volumes.

Jim McDougall · 30th September 2010, 05:20 PM

Hi Ron,
Thanks very much for the tip on that, and though I am familiar with the work of Mr. Skennerton I had not been aware of this one. I doubt very much that I would be able to smuggle a 5 vol. set into the 'bookmobile' here though!!!
We have been on the road in an RV for over three yrs and my 'library' is situated in sundry cabinets, under the bed, seats etc. and I can barely get an Osprey paperback in here

Good work on noting those changes though, and on these forum pages, I never stop learning !!!

All the best,
Jim

kronckew · 30th September 2010, 08:10 PM

as noted, the prison officer ones frequently had a scabbard locking device, as on this one of mine, the blade is much the same, with false edge, as the posted one, tho this one has been chromed at some point in it's life, obscuring any earlier markings.

Ron Anderson · 1st October 2010, 12:35 AM

Hi Jim

I did not realise you lived in an RV. That is amazing.

These are very small volumes. They are A5 in size. But I understand now how limited your space must be.

I'd be happy to copy them and put them in one folio for you if you are interested. Let me know if you have a box you can pick them up from.

Jim McDougall · 1st October 2010, 10:02 PM

Hi Ron,
Thank you so much, that is a most kind and generous offer! Yes, I am the wandering researcher, 'on the road' for over three years now, and it definitely has challenges, space issues not withstanding. The closest thing I have to a home base or 'neighborhood' is these forums as we are constantly on the move. Thus, my domicile noted on my avatar 'Route 66'

All the best,
Jim

Ron Anderson · 2nd October 2010, 02:59 AM

Yes, I did notice that!

I thought you had a house on the side of the highway.

Clearly not.

terry1956 · 11th October 2010, 12:58 PM

above is a picture of my hanger, You can see that it has the locking catch, so making it a later item, maybe around 1850.
michael

fernando · 11th October 2010, 03:27 PM

Welcome to the forum, Michael.
Nice hanger you got there

terry1956 · 11th October 2010, 08:10 PM

Thanks, yes its in nice condition, and thanks for saying so. looks nice on the wall, hoping to pick up some other items to go with it, tipstaff etc. michael

stephen wood · 11th October 2010, 10:54 PM

...I took this one - it is unmarked - to the Arms and Armour Society meeting last week. Frederick Wilkinson had a look - his book Those Entrusted with Arms: A History of the Police, Post, Customs and Private Use of Weapons in Britain is excellent. We were discussing the fact that the design dates back to the early 1800's yet was still being produced well into the second half of the century.

I think it has less to do with Naval and Military swords and more with civilian hangers - part of a concious attempt to present early Police forces as civilian entities?

Ron Anderson · 12th October 2010, 01:58 AM

Hi Stephen

As I mentioned, the same design seems to pertain to volunteer swords like the Artillery Volunteer sword that I have.

These are also I guess civilian arms, so you may be right about that assessment.

The sword I have is like the military officer's sword, but shorter and with that earlier design - both elements make it distinct from the usual army sword. No doubt they thought it was important to keep the distinction clear.

kronckew · 12th October 2010, 08:09 AM

i read somewhere that these police/prison service hangers are usually found unsharpened as the intent if used was not to sever body parts asunder, but to inflict pain and at most break bones.

they also were a symbol of office; most european police forces do not use badges like in the US. (they use distinctive uniforms or a warrant card - ID - much like the FBI one, or ones other federal agents carry)

stephen wood · 12th October 2010, 04:21 PM

...actually Parker made edged weapons for the Volunteer Movement.

The hanger only tended to be issued to officers on solitary patrols or during civil disobedience. And they were sharpened.

Lee · 7th February 2013, 03:19 PM

I have had this communication from a descendent of John Perrin Field:

Quote:

My great grandmother Marianne Field and her sister came to Australia with their brother John Perrin Field in the mid-19th Century. Their father, John Perrin Field was the principal of the a/m company. John Perrin Field Snr manufactured both swords and guns. His address when active was High Holborn I believe. His son founded a machine factory here in Melbourne in the 1860s or 70s. John Perrin Field was the godson of John Perrin, Lord Mayor of London; his brother was the godson of Nelson. When the company in London folded, Field retired to Bedfordshire. Amongst the property he left was his gold watch which I passed on to my son. When his wife died (Mary Sara) he remarried (his housekeeper). His children disapproved and came en masse to Melbourne.

11th October 2010, 12:58 PM	#7
terry1956 Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: yeovil, somerset, uk Posts: 75	my hanger above is a picture of my hanger, You can see that it has the locking catch, so making it a later item, maybe around 1850. michael

11th October 2010, 08:10 PM	#9
terry1956 Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: yeovil, somerset, uk Posts: 75	thanks for reply Thanks, yes its in nice condition, and thanks for saying so. looks nice on the wall, hoping to pick up some other items to go with it, tipstaff etc. michael

11th October 2010, 10:54 PM	#10
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...I took this one - it is unmarked - to the Arms and Armour Society meeting last week. Frederick Wilkinson had a look - his book Those Entrusted with Arms: A History of the Police, Post, Customs and Private Use of Weapons in Britain is excellent. We were discussing the fact that the design dates back to the early 1800's yet was still being produced well into the second half of the century. I think it has less to do with Naval and Military swords and more with civilian hangers - part of a concious attempt to present early Police forces as civilian entities? Attached Images

30th September 2010, 06:41 AM	#1
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Jim Do you have or do you know about a series of volumes entitled 'The List of changes in British military equipment'? It's edited by Ian Skennerton. It's the British miliatry list of changes on edged weapons and accoutrements from about the 1860s to the 1920s? Very valuable. However, I think the changes referred to here precede the published list. Nonetheless, if you don't have the books, they're worth getting for any researcher. There are 5 volumes.

30th September 2010, 05:20 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Hi Ron, Thanks very much for the tip on that, and though I am familiar with the work of Mr. Skennerton I had not been aware of this one. I doubt very much that I would be able to smuggle a 5 vol. set into the 'bookmobile' here though!!! We have been on the road in an RV for over three yrs and my 'library' is situated in sundry cabinets, under the bed, seats etc. and I can barely get an Osprey paperback in here Good work on noting those changes though, and on these forum pages, I never stop learning !!! All the best, Jim

30th September 2010, 08:10 PM	#3
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	as noted, the prison officer ones frequently had a scabbard locking device, as on this one of mine, the blade is much the same, with false edge, as the posted one, tho this one has been chromed at some point in it's life, obscuring any earlier markings.

1st October 2010, 12:35 AM	#4
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Jim I did not realise you lived in an RV. That is amazing. These are very small volumes. They are A5 in size. But I understand now how limited your space must be. I'd be happy to copy them and put them in one folio for you if you are interested. Let me know if you have a box you can pick them up from.

1st October 2010, 10:02 PM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Hi Ron, Thank you so much, that is a most kind and generous offer! Yes, I am the wandering researcher, 'on the road' for over three years now, and it definitely has challenges, space issues not withstanding. The closest thing I have to a home base or 'neighborhood' is these forums as we are constantly on the move. Thus, my domicile noted on my avatar 'Route 66' All the best, Jim

2nd October 2010, 02:59 AM	#6
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Yes, I did notice that! I thought you had a house on the side of the highway. Clearly not.

11th October 2010, 03:27 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Welcome to the forum, Michael. Nice hanger you got there

12th October 2010, 01:58 AM	#11
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Stephen As I mentioned, the same design seems to pertain to volunteer swords like the Artillery Volunteer sword that I have. These are also I guess civilian arms, so you may be right about that assessment. The sword I have is like the military officer's sword, but shorter and with that earlier design - both elements make it distinct from the usual army sword. No doubt they thought it was important to keep the distinction clear.

12th October 2010, 08:09 AM	#12
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,215	i read somewhere that these police/prison service hangers are usually found unsharpened as the intent if used was not to sever body parts asunder, but to inflict pain and at most break bones. they also were a symbol of office; most european police forces do not use badges like in the US. (they use distinctive uniforms or a warrant card - ID - much like the FBI one, or ones other federal agents carry)

12th October 2010, 04:21 PM	#13
stephen wood Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 227	...actually Parker made edged weapons for the Volunteer Movement. The hanger only tended to be issued to officers on solitary patrols or during civil disobedience. And they were sharpened.