vikingsword?!? ID needed

cornelistromp · 29th September 2010, 08:34 PM

Hi Michael,

Thank you very much!
it is very nice to see you write a comment about a sword, it is a very rare and special moment for all of us

this sword is very difficult to place, when you look on top of the pommel in the plan of the blade you see a cross patee. I received reactions from a roman sword till a 16thC sword.still I really can not place it.

I think that it is not a katzbalger because the shoulder of the blade fitted into the cross guard, you can see the trace at the blade, most (all) of the katzbalgers have the shoulder resting on the cross block and more important a ricasso!

f/m I think there is some pattern welding however because there is organic material hard as stone on the blade,it is not very obvious.

looking forward to some more reactions.

Lee · 30th September 2010, 11:43 AM

I am not aware of Viking Age pommels of this form, though the profile of the blade does indeed resemble Viking Age blades. Unfortunately I cannot discern fullering or blade details with all the overlying 'patina.'

There is, in Zurich at the National Museum, a most fantastic and wonderful excavated katzbalger that is mounted with a superb Migration Period pattern-welded blade! All suggesting a second 'working life' for the blade.

I'll try and dig up the museum accession number, details and a picture over the coming weekend.

Matchlock · 30th September 2010, 06:17 PM

Hi Lee,

Superb suggestion - we are eager to see the details!

The idea of a Katzbalger did not come from myself but from an absolutely expert friend who - in his field of late medieval and early Renaissance weapons - has about the same qualified expertise as I hope to be able and boast of

in mine.

Based on my cultural historical background though I can tell that Viking swords had either characteristic Brazil nut or trilobite pommels which the one in question is definitely not.

As soon as you have identified the Zurich Katzbalger I will search my photo archive as I photographed literally everything on various priviledged visits there.

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 30th September 2010, 06:58 PM

A Katzbalger of ca. 1535 - same period as yours - in the Musée de l'Armée in Paris.

Best, Michael

Dmitry · 30th September 2010, 07:30 PM

I just showed these photos to my cat, who has an impeccable nose for the 16th century pommels. Her verdict - a katzbalger!
So our experts agree!!!

Jim McDougall · 1st October 2010, 06:13 AM

I have been repeatedly drawn back to this thread by this intriguing sword, which of course at first glance has the compelling gestalt of a Frankish sword of Migration to Viking periods, and each time have been almost taunted by this strange pommel, and the configuration of the hilt at the blade root.

I must admit being a bit intimidated as I enter this sector in placing observations as Lee has of course pretty much the final word on these type swords with his many years of experience and research, which as noted, began these forums. Also I would note that Michaels note suggesting the 'katzbalger' potential seems to be ultimately plausible, and the similarity in the pommel profile he has shown is also compelling.

With that, I am really looking forward to the katzbalger Lee has cited in Zurich with a Migration period blade. That is absolutely phenomenal, to think of a blade with a secondary working life many centuries later, but in those days a good blade was to be used, not placed in a museum.

While it does seem that a katzbalger sword with a Migration period blade might be feasible as an anomaly on the Continent, such a combination excavated in England suggesting its being in situ from these early periods is truly puzzling.
The extreme goethite encrustation has eliminated it seems the definition in the sword elements that would help us in better identification, but as noted, the blade does have essentially the profile of these Frankish blades.

In Ellis-Davidson (p.48), it is noted that of these Frankish blades, which of course Ulfbehrt comes to mind, the Ingelrii (Ingelrilt, Ingelrd) blades which though contemporary, continued much later and in were known as late as 12th century. Also mentioned is that these blades were distributed appararantly differently in being found in England and Sweden.

While we know that the Viking period closed around 11th century, and that these blades are known as late as 12th c. and in England, these blades would, as evidenced, continue as working blades for some time later, even centuries, and into the period where these quite different type pommels and mounts would have been in place. The katzbalger swords seem to have thier origins around 15th century and continued into the 17th.

I am wondering if this might be a type of transitional or atavistic sword in England which might have been mounted in traditional style of earlier swords actually carrying an earlier blade, possibly even Ingelrii, and with pommel fashioned more toward other developing forms , perhaps around the 13th-14th century.

All best regards,
Jim

Lee · 2nd October 2010, 02:52 PM

Here is the listing for the katzbalger with recycled early Medieval blade from the catalog of edged weapons in the Schweizerischen Landesmuseum in Zurich.

I am still looking for a slide I made of it...

29th September 2010, 08:34 PM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi Michael, Thank you very much! it is very nice to see you write a comment about a sword, it is a very rare and special moment for all of us this sword is very difficult to place, when you look on top of the pommel in the plan of the blade you see a cross patee. I received reactions from a roman sword till a 16thC sword.still I really can not place it. I think that it is not a katzbalger because the shoulder of the blade fitted into the cross guard, you can see the trace at the blade, most (all) of the katzbalgers have the shoulder resting on the cross block and more important a ricasso! f/m I think there is some pattern welding however because there is organic material hard as stone on the blade,it is not very obvious. looking forward to some more reactions. Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 29th September 2010 at 09:26 PM.

30th September 2010, 11:43 AM	#2
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	Interesting! I am not aware of Viking Age pommels of this form, though the profile of the blade does indeed resemble Viking Age blades. Unfortunately I cannot discern fullering or blade details with all the overlying 'patina.' There is, in Zurich at the National Museum, a most fantastic and wonderful excavated katzbalger that is mounted with a superb Migration Period pattern-welded blade! All suggesting a second 'working life' for the blade. I'll try and dig up the museum accession number, details and a picture over the coming weekend.

1st October 2010, 06:13 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	I have been repeatedly drawn back to this thread by this intriguing sword, which of course at first glance has the compelling gestalt of a Frankish sword of Migration to Viking periods, and each time have been almost taunted by this strange pommel, and the configuration of the hilt at the blade root. I must admit being a bit intimidated as I enter this sector in placing observations as Lee has of course pretty much the final word on these type swords with his many years of experience and research, which as noted, began these forums. Also I would note that Michaels note suggesting the 'katzbalger' potential seems to be ultimately plausible, and the similarity in the pommel profile he has shown is also compelling. With that, I am really looking forward to the katzbalger Lee has cited in Zurich with a Migration period blade. That is absolutely phenomenal, to think of a blade with a secondary working life many centuries later, but in those days a good blade was to be used, not placed in a museum. While it does seem that a katzbalger sword with a Migration period blade might be feasible as an anomaly on the Continent, such a combination excavated in England suggesting its being in situ from these early periods is truly puzzling. The extreme goethite encrustation has eliminated it seems the definition in the sword elements that would help us in better identification, but as noted, the blade does have essentially the profile of these Frankish blades. In Ellis-Davidson (p.48), it is noted that of these Frankish blades, which of course Ulfbehrt comes to mind, the Ingelrii (Ingelrilt, Ingelrd) blades which though contemporary, continued much later and in were known as late as 12th century. Also mentioned is that these blades were distributed appararantly differently in being found in England and Sweden. While we know that the Viking period closed around 11th century, and that these blades are known as late as 12th c. and in England, these blades would, as evidenced, continue as working blades for some time later, even centuries, and into the period where these quite different type pommels and mounts would have been in place. The katzbalger swords seem to have thier origins around 15th century and continued into the 17th. I am wondering if this might be a type of transitional or atavistic sword in England which might have been mounted in traditional style of earlier swords actually carrying an earlier blade, possibly even Ingelrii, and with pommel fashioned more toward other developing forms , perhaps around the 13th-14th century. All best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 1st October 2010 at 04:22 PM.

2nd October 2010, 02:52 PM	#7
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 932	Reference from Schneider (1980) Here is the listing for the katzbalger with recycled early Medieval blade from the catalog of edged weapons in the Schweizerischen Landesmuseum in Zurich. I am still looking for a slide I made of it... Attached Images

30th September 2010, 06:17 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi Lee, Superb suggestion - we are eager to see the details! The idea of a Katzbalger did not come from myself but from an absolutely expert friend who - in his field of late medieval and early Renaissance weapons - has about the same qualified expertise as I hope to be able and boast of in mine. Based on my cultural historical background though I can tell that Viking swords had either characteristic Brazil nut or trilobite pommels which the one in question is definitely not. As soon as you have identified the Zurich Katzbalger I will search my photo archive as I photographed literally everything on various priviledged visits there. Best, Michael

30th September 2010, 06:58 PM	#4
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	A Katzbalger of ca. 1535 - same period as yours - in the Musée de l'Armée in Paris. Best, Michael

30th September 2010, 07:30 PM	#5
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	I just showed these photos to my cat, who has an impeccable nose for the 16th century pommels. Her verdict - a katzbalger! So our experts agree!!!