Interesting smallsword for comment

[Dmitry]

Jim, this is not a sword guard; it looks like an ornamental element from, say, an armoire, or a chair, or a door.
In other words, imho, this is a made-up piece.

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Jim, this is not a sword guard; it looks like an ornamental element from, say, an armoire, or a chair, or a door.
In other words, imho, this is a made-up piece.

Dmitry,
Wow, never would have thought of that, and the rest of the sword looks right on...in fact even this whatever it is looks pretty good on it, as if it always belonged there. I know these ornate openwork guards were used on these court swords in different patterns, and this one did seem heavy and not as finely detailed.

[ariel]

Dmitry, this is a very interesting suggestion.
Perhaps, Valjhun can look carefully whether the metal(s) differ between the guard per se and the rest of the assembly. Even some difference in the tint might be enough.

[Marc]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Jim, this is not a sword guard; it looks like an ornamental element from, say, an armoire, or a chair, or a door.
In other words, imho, this is a made-up piece.

I agree with Dimitry. I would maybe hazard a guess for a guard from a better-than-average foil or duelling sword of French style. The blade would be from a duelling sword, and the rest of the hilt from a 18th c. smallsword, indeed.

[Valjhun]

hmmm... interesting....

Well upon a close view in sunlight, the material of guard is not different at all and it exibits the same patination than the rest of the sword.

The sword is of very sturdy construction too and there is no sings that someone messed with it.. It looks that it was construced this way a long time ago.

What do you mean by, french duelling sword? I'm unfamiliar with that type, can you post some examples?

Another thing. The blade is not sharpened at all, and it never intended to be. More trapeziodal in section than triangular. Purely thrusting weapon?

[Jim McDougall]

Good call Ariel, on suggesting closer look at patination and the metalwork together. While Dmitry's suggestion on this guard being an element of furniture decor seems plausible, and quite innovative, I am still uncomfortable with the idea as the components of this sword are altogether too congruent.
The features seem to correspond too well, and frankly, many of these cut steel small swords and others of this period seem almost workmanlike. The Matthew Boulton I mentioned who made many of these seemed to follow an almost 'industrial' style in much of his motif. It was indeed an industrial time in England, and actually he had partnered with James Watt in developing the steam engine.....so the 'nuts and bolts' feel of a number of his weapons may have been aesthetically well placed.

I'm with Marc on the suggestion on French fencing foils, which seemed to favor the bilobate guards in many examples while others were the cupped disc in England and Italy. The French school of fence was deeply influential among the gentry in England it would seem, and that style of fencing and for that matter duelling was , I believe, the driving force behind the evolution of the smallsword during the century before.

I am wondering if this unusually long blade may suggest this to be a duelling epee of the period we are considering c.1790-1810, and as mentioned, probably English.

The duelling foils are simple instruments with the hilts quite rudimentary as they are not intended for actual combat but sporting events. While they are much like practice swords in having blunted and buttoned tip blades, they are very close vestigially to the actual sword types represented.

I think I'll stay with this being a Birmingham smallsword, quite possibly a duelling epee with French influence c.1790-1810. As Mark said earlier, it looks like a serious fighting sword, and in these times, a man's honor was very serious business, with duelling often almost mandated when compromised.
While the pistol had become most commonly used, it must be remembered that there was a choice of weapons agreede upon in carrying out the duel, and the tradition of the sword remained ever present.


All best regards

[Dmitry]

Originally Posted by Marc

I agree with Dimitry. I would maybe hazard a guess for a guard from a better-than-average foil or duelling sword of French style. The blade would be from a duelling sword, and the rest of the hilt from a 18th c. smallsword, indeed.

That's a good point, Marc. The guard may be from an old fencing foil, put on sideways.

Dueling swords did not have knuckle bows.

[kronckew]

antique fencing foils & mask for illustration. the figure eight guards would usually have a solid leather backing pad to further protect the hand. the one with the pink background was a duelling sword with a triangular blade with only the tip sharpened (thrusting only, ie. epee) and the fig. eight guard is solid sheet metal. note the period photo of the man using one has the guard arranged so the long dimension is vertical, like on the subject weapon. like an eight - '8' - not an 'infinity' '00' where the long dimension is horizontal. it is possible the previous owner of the subject weapon assembled the guard 90 degrees out from the more normal smallsword position. the last photo is of an ealry duelling epee with an oval guard with a rayed flame motif.

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent Kronckew , thank you for those illustrations, exactly what I was looking for! The dual oval shaped guard was what I was thinking of.
Thank you for posting the duelling epee, and Dmitry, I missed that also, forgot about that knuckleguard

I suppose it is possible for a walking sword to be of the type which might serve as a duelling epee if required, but still have the fashionable style of the gentlemans smallsword. As always, I am typically overly optimistic, but remain in view of this sword as purposefully fabricated as is, and in the period noted. While I do not believe this is a fencing sword guard, I do believe it is made with these in mind, and in classical motif despite its rather heavy application. As I have contended, these were industrial times and sound, almost workmanlike features might well have recalled architectural motifs which also carried neoclassical themes in this period.

The only factor that is somewhat distracting with the configuration of the guard on this sword is that the lobes are positioned transversely to the quillons and knuckleguard, rather than horizontally in line. As the components seem to be homogenous as examined, the sword appears to have been originally intended as it stands, so perhaps this alignment was simply stylistic preference or if indeed innovatively fabricated, an oversight? It seems that if positioned otherwise the vestigial pas d'ane arms would have had no element for them to terminate upon.

The case continues

All best regards,
Jim

[Dmitry]

I knew I saw the guard before, in another incarnation.
Now it's clear to me that someone had a processional sword guard at hand, removed the quillons, and put the hilt together.

[Chris Evans]

Hi Folks,

I tend to agree with Dmitry. There is something about this sword that's just not rigt. The hand guard reeks of not being period and the blade looks atypical too, more like a late 19th century dueling epee.

Cheers
Chris