For comment: Possibly a 'Berber saber'

fernando · 25th September 2010, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

... 'Manuel' may either be Portuguese or Spanish, but the name 'Deja' or started by 'Deja...' can not be Portuguese; so its Spanish by exclusion...

Even for Spanish is a bit of a bizarre composition

.
Could it be that a space should be considered between 'DE' and 'JA', so as to be 'MANUEL DE JA ...' ?
Thia would open the door to a few more plausible names ... still Spanish, i would say

.

katana · 25th September 2010, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Could it be that a space should be considered between 'DE' and 'JA', so as to be 'MANUEL DE JA ...' ?
Thia would open the door to a few more plausible names ... still Spanish, i would say

.

Hi 'Nando

,

"Deja vu"

.....I have already search for 'manuel de ja', but cannot find any link to the name + sword

Best
David

gaerich · 25th September 2010, 03:14 PM

I fatfingered the name its manuel deje not deja. It is almost identical to the sword on this link.

edit:
The item has been relisted, link removed .

katana · 25th September 2010, 03:48 PM

Another sword on Artzi's site with a description relevent to the thread...

".......Spanish Colonial sword is the common name for these rare and unusual swords, however, where they were used is not very clear. It was attributed to Spanish troops serving in Spanish Morocco, and/or Philippines and/or Cuba and other Central America countries....."

Although the hilt is of different material there are slight similarities...also the idea of a sword 'travelling' to the US ...from North Africa via South/central America seems remotely possible.

David

.

carlos · 25th September 2010, 04:46 PM

I think this type of blades are from Spanish aerea, In the military museum of Montjuich, Barcelona ( now closed ) there are similar examples, with a example of espada ancha and a chile corvo Knife.
Best regards
Carlos

fernando · 25th September 2010, 07:46 PM

Muy bien Carlos

.
This is it.
I have been here before the museum closed. Great collection; i took pictures of that espada ancha, but they came out very poor.
I wonder what the labels say about the two sabres similar to the one posted; you mention Spanish area, but is it peninsular Spanish, Colonial Spanish, Spanish with Moorish influence?!
What do you think?

carlos · 25th September 2010, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Muy bien Carlos

.
This is it.
I have been here before the museum closed. Great collection; i took pictures of that espada ancha, but they came out very poor.
I wonder what the labels say about the two sabres similar to the one posted; you mention Spanish area, but is it peninsular Spanish, Colonial Spanish, Spanish with Moorish influence?!
What do you think?

Hello Fernando!!
I think is spanish but with moorish influence, I cant remember labels at the museum, but I think moorish.
Best regards
carlos

Jim McDougall · 25th September 2010, 08:43 PM

These really interesting sabres are well represented using the search under 'Berber sabres', which was the classification used to describe them when they began noticeable appearance in number about 13-14 years ago.
Initially they were thought to be Berber, and from the Rif regions in Morocco, but that association was never really proven to the best of my knowledge.
Tirri showed them as from Spanish Moroccan regions, which seems to apply in degree as in my opinion they are 19th century ersatz type sabre/machetes that appear throughout the 'Spanish Main' of latter 19th century.

It is interesting to note that considerable numbers of these carry the M1796 light cavalry sabre blades. While obviously the British presence in the Peninsula during the Napoleonic Wars was significant, and perhaps a number of these blades entered the Spanish trade sphere with that. It should be noted that numbers of these light cavalry blades were exported to the Americas, and may well have entered the 'Main' in those regions.

These, along with the odd swords with distinct 'finger stall' impressions in the grips and deep notch at the pommel, both of which are I would condider late Spanish colonial weapons, and would have still included Republican Mexico ports of call.

I recall acquiring examples of both of these forms back about the time we began becoming aware of them in the mid 90s. The brass hilt finger stall type I acquired was said to have come from Monterrey, Mexico...while the sabre of this form was claimed as Berber, Morocco (it has the MANUEL stamp and the scabbard with vertical protrusion at tip for blade withdrawal).The subsequent research over years revealed these types as primarily acquired during Spanish-American War and from locations in Puerto Rico, Cuba and as far as the Philippines.
I have seen the 'Berber' types in Mexican sword groupings, probably from the ports of call on the Gulf, and have even seen the fingerstall type listed as Algerian (likely from Maghreb associations in trade ports).

It is interesting that many of these sabres with the M1796 type blades have had the blade tips profiled in a kind of ships prow type shape reminiscent of the blades on kampilan, and I always wondered about the association being possible via Spanish trade routes.

The finger stall hilt types are often with added shellguards and knucklebows which led many to think of them as 'espada anchas', which of course they are not. Most typically these occur without guards much as these 'Berber' sabre types, and I have seen them listed years ago in English auctions and 'Mexican sabres'.

The factor that leads away from distinct Moroccan attribution with these is that they were never included in nor mentioned by Charles Buttin, one of the most prolific collectors and researchers of the weapons of the North African Maghreb. He lived there for a considerable period of his life, so certainly would have included them if present in any degree.

Im glad to see this posted, and grateful for the opportunity to collect thoughts from the years these have been researched and discussed.
As always, I look forward to new contributions and examples that may have come up with those out there reading this.

In post #14 by David, showing the silver hilt 'fingerstall' type without guard I mentioned....this basic type as I have described in apparantly most variations is believed attributed to the Ejercito de Ultramar in Puerto Rico and Cuba, and termed 'guanabacoa' (per posting by Gonzalo 7/23/08).

In #15 by Carlos, the excellent grouping here includes the top sword with full shellguard, which we discovered about 3 years ago to be a Brazilian form of espada, and a type established with provenanced examples. These also are known with British blades.

Items 2 and 3 are of course the 'Berber' type and as noted, these guardless hilts are often reflective of 'Moorish' influence either from Morocco or in some cases other Spanish colonial regions carrying Andalusian style. Many of these hilts have the eyelet pierced presumably for lanyard or sword knot, and many are in much cruder even wooden handles, probably reflecting local variation.
With the heavy blades on most, it seems likely many of would have served both as weapons and machetes as previously noted.

All very best regards,
Jim

25th September 2010, 03:14 PM	#3
gaerich Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 1	I fatfingered the name its manuel deje not deja. It is almost identical to the sword on this link. edit: The item has been relisted, link removed . Last edited by Rick; 25th September 2010 at 08:28 PM.

25th September 2010, 03:48 PM	#4
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Another sword on Artzi's site with a description relevent to the thread... ".......Spanish Colonial sword is the common name for these rare and unusual swords, however, where they were used is not very clear. It was attributed to Spanish troops serving in Spanish Morocco, and/or Philippines and/or Cuba and other Central America countries....." Although the hilt is of different material there are slight similarities...also the idea of a sword 'travelling' to the US ...from North Africa via South/central America seems remotely possible. David . Attached Images

25th September 2010, 04:46 PM	#5
carlos Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 748	I think this type of blades are from Spanish aerea, In the military museum of Montjuich, Barcelona ( now closed ) there are similar examples, with a example of espada ancha and a chile corvo Knife. Best regards Carlos Attached Images

25th September 2010, 08:43 PM	#8
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,192	These really interesting sabres are well represented using the search under 'Berber sabres', which was the classification used to describe them when they began noticeable appearance in number about 13-14 years ago. Initially they were thought to be Berber, and from the Rif regions in Morocco, but that association was never really proven to the best of my knowledge. Tirri showed them as from Spanish Moroccan regions, which seems to apply in degree as in my opinion they are 19th century ersatz type sabre/machetes that appear throughout the 'Spanish Main' of latter 19th century. It is interesting to note that considerable numbers of these carry the M1796 light cavalry sabre blades. While obviously the British presence in the Peninsula during the Napoleonic Wars was significant, and perhaps a number of these blades entered the Spanish trade sphere with that. It should be noted that numbers of these light cavalry blades were exported to the Americas, and may well have entered the 'Main' in those regions. These, along with the odd swords with distinct 'finger stall' impressions in the grips and deep notch at the pommel, both of which are I would condider late Spanish colonial weapons, and would have still included Republican Mexico ports of call. I recall acquiring examples of both of these forms back about the time we began becoming aware of them in the mid 90s. The brass hilt finger stall type I acquired was said to have come from Monterrey, Mexico...while the sabre of this form was claimed as Berber, Morocco (it has the MANUEL stamp and the scabbard with vertical protrusion at tip for blade withdrawal).The subsequent research over years revealed these types as primarily acquired during Spanish-American War and from locations in Puerto Rico, Cuba and as far as the Philippines. I have seen the 'Berber' types in Mexican sword groupings, probably from the ports of call on the Gulf, and have even seen the fingerstall type listed as Algerian (likely from Maghreb associations in trade ports). It is interesting that many of these sabres with the M1796 type blades have had the blade tips profiled in a kind of ships prow type shape reminiscent of the blades on kampilan, and I always wondered about the association being possible via Spanish trade routes. The finger stall hilt types are often with added shellguards and knucklebows which led many to think of them as 'espada anchas', which of course they are not. Most typically these occur without guards much as these 'Berber' sabre types, and I have seen them listed years ago in English auctions and 'Mexican sabres'. The factor that leads away from distinct Moroccan attribution with these is that they were never included in nor mentioned by Charles Buttin, one of the most prolific collectors and researchers of the weapons of the North African Maghreb. He lived there for a considerable period of his life, so certainly would have included them if present in any degree. Im glad to see this posted, and grateful for the opportunity to collect thoughts from the years these have been researched and discussed. As always, I look forward to new contributions and examples that may have come up with those out there reading this. In post #14 by David, showing the silver hilt 'fingerstall' type without guard I mentioned....this basic type as I have described in apparantly most variations is believed attributed to the Ejercito de Ultramar in Puerto Rico and Cuba, and termed 'guanabacoa' (per posting by Gonzalo 7/23/08). In #15 by Carlos, the excellent grouping here includes the top sword with full shellguard, which we discovered about 3 years ago to be a Brazilian form of espada, and a type established with provenanced examples. These also are known with British blades. Items 2 and 3 are of course the 'Berber' type and as noted, these guardless hilts are often reflective of 'Moorish' influence either from Morocco or in some cases other Spanish colonial regions carrying Andalusian style. Many of these hilts have the eyelet pierced presumably for lanyard or sword knot, and many are in much cruder even wooden handles, probably reflecting local variation. With the heavy blades on most, it seems likely many of would have served both as weapons and machetes as previously noted. All very best regards, Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 25th September 2010 at 08:56 PM.

25th September 2010, 07:46 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Muy bien Carlos . This is it. I have been here before the museum closed. Great collection; i took pictures of that espada ancha, but they came out very poor. I wonder what the labels say about the two sabres similar to the one posted; you mention Spanish area, but is it peninsular Spanish, Colonial Spanish, Spanish with Moorish influence?! What do you think?