A big happy takouba family

Iain · 15th September 2010, 09:56 PM

Rather than posting the bunch of takouba I've picked up in the last few months as individual threads I thought I'd just throw a group picture out there - a few of these I've shown on the forum before but I like doing big groupings and six or so are new.

As always, the variety in the type amazes me. The big fat one 4th from the top will get it's own thread in a bit - once I sort through my thoughts on it and manage to take a few detail pictures.

Hopefully this is interesting for some.

Best,

Iain

Jim McDougall · 16th September 2010, 05:29 AM

What an amazing grouping Iain .....thats one really happy family!!!
I think one of the most interesting things on these are the distinctly triangular profiled blades, seemingly reminiscent of those of early medieval European swords.
The bottom one with the curved blade, if I recall in Lee Jones work on takoubas, were termed 'aljuinar'.
Looking forward to more comments.....it would be great to see other takouba examples from out there to get some comparitive examination going, I know you guys out there have at least a few around

Thank you for posting these,
All the best,
Jim

Lee · 16th September 2010, 10:39 PM

I am pleased that I am not the only one afflicted by the takouba.

The top one (#5 in collections following the link below) elicits the strongest drool response for me!

In case you have missed it so far, wander over to Iain's Takouba Research Society

Iain · 16th September 2010, 11:40 PM

Hi Lee,

Very glad you chimed in. That solingen bladed example you noted was complete luck on my part. Bought it based on some rather poor photos and had no idea about the markings and expected nothing more than a rather typical piece. I had a bit of a shock when I got it in hand!

Unfortunately the current mounts don't do the blade justice (not all that well balanced) but the blade, well that at least is marvelous.

I'm attaching a shot of the blade marking for those who don't want to be bothered visiting my site, although I have to say thank you for linking to it - I've never been quite sure how to introduce it here without looking a bit pompous. By the way, feel free to submit some swords folks.

The more the merrier.

Best,

Iain

ariel · 17th September 2010, 12:26 PM

Is it my imagination, or do I see remnants of european lettering in the central fuller? D? L?

Iain · 17th September 2010, 01:39 PM

Which side of the orb do you think you see it Ariel? I'd looked for anything else before but its entirely possible I missed it...

It's got the corrosion patterns that seem to form a lot of things... But I'd be very happy if there was something more.

I'll take a look at it again tonight when I'm home from the office.

Best,

Iain

spiral · 17th September 2010, 02:07 PM

Rust can do funny things but I see a capital E.

Spiral

Iain · 17th September 2010, 02:57 PM

I can see how it would appear that way Spiral but I don't think it is. Let me post the highest rez closeup I have of the cross and orb with a different orientation.

I'd really like to find some lettering, and maybe I'm just blind, but I don't see it.

But keep trying guys you'll make me very happy if we do find an inscription!

Best,

Iain

Iain · 17th September 2010, 07:10 PM

I don't like double posting but... I got home today and had another look at this takouba under a strong light. No inscription I'm afraid but... I did find this.

I know Jim is well versed in this, I at least haven't seen the wolf executed this way before?

fearn · 17th September 2010, 10:40 PM

Hi Iain,

Thanks to your website, I got a little more informed about Takoubas.

Here's a suggestion: instead of cross and orb, maybe those are letters in the Tifinagh alphabet?

Best,

F

Iain · 20th September 2010, 09:18 AM

Interesting idea Fearn. However as far as I know Arabic script is usually used by the Tuareg for most inscriptions intended for general showing (I noticed this was also mentioned on the link you provided).

However, putting that aside because who knows, strange things can happen, the closest I can see for a match would be two letters, 'B' and 'T.' That's pretty cryptic and given the wolf engraving on the other side I'm pretty comfortable sticking with European for a source of the markings.

Although it is a tad weird to see a mark normally associated with Solingen shops along with the wolf which as far as I know was usually associated with Passau. Nothing is ever simple!

Thanks again for the suggestion though. I've encountered little Tuareg engraving on blades but there's always a potential first time.

Best,

Iain

Lee · 20th September 2010, 10:42 AM

I also do not recall having ever seen a Tifinagh inscription on a blade; signatures may be found on silver and brass mountings, however. Likely this is related to the severe superstitions against iron workers in that traditional culture.

I have spent many hours trying to resolve characters and design motifs out of corrosion and polishing noise on these blades. Many hours.

I may be wrong, but my tentative conclusion in examining the blades in my own collection has been that the light, etched engraving is local work, even though it may have been applied to what is clearly a European made (trade) blade and good desirable antique. In example I offer the very first takouba to enter my collection (for which I paid way too much for in Morocco in 1999). The evidence is motifs that just do not go together in a European context. Even carrying this conclusion, I still drool and lust for your classy example of the forum.

The takouba pages have become a painful reminder of the era of dial-up internet access, with their tiny images and multiple pages to conserve bandwidth and get a tolerable page load speed. So much of the static portion of the site needs a makeover...

Iain · 20th September 2010, 11:23 AM

Hi Lee,

I think you correct. For one thing my "wolf" looks far more like a sheep!

Oddly this makes the piece more attractive to me as my interest is more towards natively made pieces. In fact I wonder if the blade is even a European import? The profile, execution of the central fuller and the two small side fullers is unlike anything I've seen before from a European trade blade.

Perhaps this is a entirely native piece? I will have to review Briggs again as I recall he discussed these possibilities somewhat extensively.

Best,

Iain

Lee · 20th September 2010, 12:53 PM

Hello Iain,

Unfortunately there are the occasional borderline examples and rare obvious exceptions to this rule, but, after you have physically handled a number of these, usually you may use flexibility to assess the origin of your takouba and kaskara blades. Attempt to gently flex the blade in your hands - a European antique will curve with light force and spring right back to straight when released. A local blade will be much more rigid and, if you apply sufficient force, will bend and remain bent. So, gentle does it! As an alternative, you can bounce the flat of the blade against the side of your leg while standing - the European blade will vibrate while the more rigid local blade will react more with a dead thud. Some of this is alloy and heat treatment (which in the laboratory may be quantified with hardness tests and micro-structural analysis) and some is thickness and cross section.

I have seen a few of these, like yours, with the broad central fuller having a narrow fuller on either side and I recall they have always given the impression of well-formed, quality blades. Somehow, amazingly, I have failed to acquire an example of my own. There was such a nice one with silver mounts on offer in Agadez in 2001, but I was still reeling and impecunious from my adventure with Tuareg brigands in the dunes.

Andy Stevens · 20th September 2010, 06:08 PM

Hello Iain and all,
We've just been admiring the grand family and wondered if our latest baby could be included in the family tree!! According to Tirri, this is a 18th/19thc takouba,so far this has been the only reference we've found to these unusual swords.The blade appears to be a possible French sabre. This is a definate fighting weapon and we are very keen to know more, even if its just a distant cousin! Regards Andy and Karina

Iain · 20th September 2010, 06:58 PM

Lee,

This is basically my understanding as well of the best tests for the relative quality. This particular blade certainly belongs in the high quality category. Interesting to know that you've run across similar pieces before. I still wonder as to the source as the profile is unlike any verified European trade blade I've encountered.

Andy & Karina,

Glad to see you jumped in here as well. I will send you a PM, I know of one other piece similar to yours but as it is up for sale somewhere I can't link it here. If I would classify these as takouba... I'm not sure. Certainly seems related but the construction methods are quite different.

If I'm not mistaken the hilt on the piece you show is horn? The Hausa are noted to have reused French military blades in the 19th century rather heavily, this of course is also true of various Berber pieces such as the nimcha. Nimcha also exhibit horn hilts which seems a closer link as I have never encountered horn hilts on Tuareg/Fulani/Hausa full sized takouba before.

Definitely something to ponder. Thanks for sharing!

Best,

Iain

Andy Stevens · 22nd September 2010, 12:49 PM

Hi Iain and all.
Hmm, tis an interesting old warrior and maybe worthy of a post of its own at some point. As to it being a Takouba... it could be a distant relation perhaps? Or an as yet unclassified saharan weapon type?? Its certainly got age and was made for purpose. Research time I guess! Regards and congrats on the new Takouba site-very cool!

15th September 2010, 09:56 PM	#1
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	A big happy takouba family Rather than posting the bunch of takouba I've picked up in the last few months as individual threads I thought I'd just throw a group picture out there - a few of these I've shown on the forum before but I like doing big groupings and six or so are new. As always, the variety in the type amazes me. The big fat one 4th from the top will get it's own thread in a bit - once I sort through my thoughts on it and manage to take a few detail pictures. Hopefully this is interesting for some. Best, Iain Attached Images Last edited by ispn; 15th September 2010 at 11:33 PM.

16th September 2010, 10:39 PM	#3
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	Very nice! I am pleased that I am not the only one afflicted by the takouba. The top one (#5 in collections following the link below) elicits the strongest drool response for me! In case you have missed it so far, wander over to Iain's Takouba Research Society

16th September 2010, 11:40 PM	#4
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Lee, Very glad you chimed in. That solingen bladed example you noted was complete luck on my part. Bought it based on some rather poor photos and had no idea about the markings and expected nothing more than a rather typical piece. I had a bit of a shock when I got it in hand! Unfortunately the current mounts don't do the blade justice (not all that well balanced) but the blade, well that at least is marvelous. I'm attaching a shot of the blade marking for those who don't want to be bothered visiting my site, although I have to say thank you for linking to it - I've never been quite sure how to introduce it here without looking a bit pompous. By the way, feel free to submit some swords folks. The more the merrier. Best, Iain Attached Images

17th September 2010, 02:07 PM	#7
spiral Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,712	Rust can do funny things but I see a capital E. Spiral Attached Images

17th September 2010, 02:57 PM	#8
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	I can see how it would appear that way Spiral but I don't think it is. Let me post the highest rez closeup I have of the cross and orb with a different orientation. I'd really like to find some lettering, and maybe I'm just blind, but I don't see it. But keep trying guys you'll make me very happy if we do find an inscription! Best, Iain Attached Images

16th September 2010, 05:29 AM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,954	What an amazing grouping Iain .....thats one really happy family!!! I think one of the most interesting things on these are the distinctly triangular profiled blades, seemingly reminiscent of those of early medieval European swords. The bottom one with the curved blade, if I recall in Lee Jones work on takoubas, were termed 'aljuinar'. Looking forward to more comments.....it would be great to see other takouba examples from out there to get some comparitive examination going, I know you guys out there have at least a few around Thank you for posting these, All the best, Jim

17th September 2010, 12:26 PM	#5
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Is it my imagination, or do I see remnants of european lettering in the central fuller? D? L?

17th September 2010, 01:39 PM	#6
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Which side of the orb do you think you see it Ariel? I'd looked for anything else before but its entirely possible I missed it... It's got the corrosion patterns that seem to form a lot of things... But I'd be very happy if there was something more. I'll take a look at it again tonight when I'm home from the office. Best, Iain

17th September 2010, 07:10 PM	#9
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	I don't like double posting but... I got home today and had another look at this takouba under a strong light. No inscription I'm afraid but... I did find this. I know Jim is well versed in this, I at least haven't seen the wolf executed this way before? Attached Images

17th September 2010, 10:40 PM	#10
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Iain, Thanks to your website, I got a little more informed about Takoubas. Here's a suggestion: instead of cross and orb, maybe those are letters in the Tifinagh alphabet? Best, F

20th September 2010, 09:18 AM	#11
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Interesting idea Fearn. However as far as I know Arabic script is usually used by the Tuareg for most inscriptions intended for general showing (I noticed this was also mentioned on the link you provided). However, putting that aside because who knows, strange things can happen, the closest I can see for a match would be two letters, 'B' and 'T.' That's pretty cryptic and given the wolf engraving on the other side I'm pretty comfortable sticking with European for a source of the markings. Although it is a tad weird to see a mark normally associated with Solingen shops along with the wolf which as far as I know was usually associated with Passau. Nothing is ever simple! Thanks again for the suggestion though. I've encountered little Tuareg engraving on blades but there's always a potential first time. Best, Iain

20th September 2010, 10:42 AM	#12
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	My own impression I also do not recall having ever seen a Tifinagh inscription on a blade; signatures may be found on silver and brass mountings, however. Likely this is related to the severe superstitions against iron workers in that traditional culture. I have spent many hours trying to resolve characters and design motifs out of corrosion and polishing noise on these blades. Many hours. I may be wrong, but my tentative conclusion in examining the blades in my own collection has been that the light, etched engraving is local work, even though it may have been applied to what is clearly a European made (trade) blade and good desirable antique. In example I offer the very first takouba to enter my collection (for which I paid way too much for in Morocco in 1999). The evidence is motifs that just do not go together in a European context. Even carrying this conclusion, I still drool and lust for your classy example of the forum. The takouba pages have become a painful reminder of the era of dial-up internet access, with their tiny images and multiple pages to conserve bandwidth and get a tolerable page load speed. So much of the static portion of the site needs a makeover... Attached Images

20th September 2010, 11:23 AM	#13
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Hi Lee, I think you correct. For one thing my "wolf" looks far more like a sheep! Oddly this makes the piece more attractive to me as my interest is more towards natively made pieces. In fact I wonder if the blade is even a European import? The profile, execution of the central fuller and the two small side fullers is unlike anything I've seen before from a European trade blade. Perhaps this is a entirely native piece? I will have to review Briggs again as I recall he discussed these possibilities somewhat extensively. Best, Iain

20th September 2010, 12:53 PM	#14
Lee EAAF Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Upstate New York, USA Posts: 914	Flexibility is the first criterion Hello Iain, Unfortunately there are the occasional borderline examples and rare obvious exceptions to this rule, but, after you have physically handled a number of these, usually you may use flexibility to assess the origin of your takouba and kaskara blades. Attempt to gently flex the blade in your hands - a European antique will curve with light force and spring right back to straight when released. A local blade will be much more rigid and, if you apply sufficient force, will bend and remain bent. So, gentle does it! As an alternative, you can bounce the flat of the blade against the side of your leg while standing - the European blade will vibrate while the more rigid local blade will react more with a dead thud. Some of this is alloy and heat treatment (which in the laboratory may be quantified with hardness tests and micro-structural analysis) and some is thickness and cross section. I have seen a few of these, like yours, with the broad central fuller having a narrow fuller on either side and I recall they have always given the impression of well-formed, quality blades. Somehow, amazingly, I have failed to acquire an example of my own. There was such a nice one with silver mounts on offer in Agadez in 2001, but I was still reeling and impecunious from my adventure with Tuareg brigands in the dunes.

20th September 2010, 06:08 PM	#15
Andy Stevens Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: London Posts: 155	Hello Iain and all, We've just been admiring the grand family and wondered if our latest baby could be included in the family tree!! According to Tirri, this is a 18th/19thc takouba,so far this has been the only reference we've found to these unusual swords.The blade appears to be a possible French sabre. This is a definate fighting weapon and we are very keen to know more, even if its just a distant cousin! Regards Andy and Karina Attached Images

20th September 2010, 06:58 PM	#16
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,693	Lee, This is basically my understanding as well of the best tests for the relative quality. This particular blade certainly belongs in the high quality category. Interesting to know that you've run across similar pieces before. I still wonder as to the source as the profile is unlike any verified European trade blade I've encountered. Andy & Karina, Glad to see you jumped in here as well. I will send you a PM, I know of one other piece similar to yours but as it is up for sale somewhere I can't link it here. If I would classify these as takouba... I'm not sure. Certainly seems related but the construction methods are quite different. If I'm not mistaken the hilt on the piece you show is horn? The Hausa are noted to have reused French military blades in the 19th century rather heavily, this of course is also true of various Berber pieces such as the nimcha. Nimcha also exhibit horn hilts which seems a closer link as I have never encountered horn hilts on Tuareg/Fulani/Hausa full sized takouba before. Definitely something to ponder. Thanks for sharing! Best, Iain

22nd September 2010, 12:49 PM	#17
Andy Stevens Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: London Posts: 155	Hi Iain and all. Hmm, tis an interesting old warrior and maybe worthy of a post of its own at some point. As to it being a Takouba... it could be a distant relation perhaps? Or an as yet unclassified saharan weapon type?? Its certainly got age and was made for purpose. Research time I guess! Regards and congrats on the new Takouba site-very cool!