Hirshfanger bayonet

Jim McDougall · 12th September 2010, 08:34 AM

Ron, I cannot speak for the 'learned members' here, but one thing I have discovered over many years here is that simply because there are no responses in a timely fashion to a thread emphatically does not mean the members have no knowledge of an item. I know that I certainly do not pretend to know about everything, but I typically spend time researching and learning about the topic at hand, and actually enjoy learning in this way.

Without going into the history of the bayonet itself, basically the first bayonets, the plug bayonets, in military sense, had a relatively short life span, giving way to the socket bayonet. The plug bayonet however, remained a favorite for hunters well into the 19th century, and even beyond in some countries (see R.D.C. Evans, "The Plug Bayonet").

Howard Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons", 1971, p.67) notes that "...the military, more interested than the sporting fraternity in the ability of a gun to shoot with its bayonet fixed were quickly to abandon the plug bayonet in favor of the socket bayonet and then the clip on sword bayonet".

While the site you linked shows the M1848 Danish hirshfanger, it is clearly not the same design but the bar slot seems remarkably the same. I seems that these bar slot fixtures or similar notched slides are actually fairly well established on sword bayonets, such as the Baker types in England c.1820 and as you note, the Danish model. Most sword bayonets of these times were cast brass and cheaply produced as many 'other ranks' sidearms for various specialized units and line infantry, artillery etc.

In "Collectors Pictorial Book of Bayonets", Frederick Stephens, 1971, #36) is shown a Prussian hirschfanger c.1790, which is remarkably like yours, but without as much of a vestigial crossguard, It has the same simple hilt and domed type pommel. I would speculate that yours is quite likely a Prussian or German state model later in the 19th century to a Jager regiment soldier.

The Jagers, as you probably already know, were military units who were recruited from huntsman and foresters in European regions, and were enlisted as reconaissance, skirmishers, snipers and often foragers. As they often furnished thier own weapons, they often carried hirshfangers (actually means deer catcher from a reference I saw), as secondary weapons.

There are many examples of hirshfangers which are combination weapons and are mounted with firearm locks and barrel which are seen from 17th and into 18th century. This tradition seems to have been present as early as 16th century even with wheelock mechanisms.

It would seem that the hirshfanger here is military, as noted, and again, probably German, about mid to third quarter 19th c.

I would be inclined to agree that this particular type of sword bayonet is indeed somewhat rare, most of the sword bayonets such as Bakers and some others are as well, and bayonet collecting is a deeply specialized field. Just how rare this might actually be is hard to say, as I note again, this is far outside my field of study. It is an intriguing piece and as always, illustrates that even the simplest appearing weapons can often have fascinating histories with the,

All best regards,
Jim

Ron Anderson · 12th September 2010, 09:08 AM

Hi Jim

Sorry if my last post seemed dismissive. Sometimes, the printed word can be misleading.

My occasionally laconic style might seem disrespectful at times. It did indeed seem as if no-one had any insight into this item. However, your post has certainly given me a lot of insight into its likely origins.

I'm inclined to agree with you on the age/period of the item, and was always of that opinion.

I guess I recognised it as rare because I have a certain acquiantance with bayonets, and this is the first of its type I have ever seen. In fact, at first I even questioned whether it was European. I thought it might be Asian!

Thanks for pointing that the Baker bayonet is in the same family of weapons. I had not thought of that, but you are no doubt correct. I am also more familiar with British military history than German.

You are right, bayonets are a real specialty. And German bayonets are a specialised field within a specialised field.

I think it is perhaps the popularity of German bayonet collecting, as much as anything else, that has prompted such impressive prices for hirschfanger bayonets on eBay.

I confess my knowledge is somewhat (actually, extremely) patchy in this area too.

Regards
Ron

Jim McDougall · 12th September 2010, 08:15 PM

Hi Ron,
No problem, I know how frustrating it is when posts or threads go unanswered or seemingly unnoticed, and honestly try to answer as many of these as I can, despite not claiming any knowledge in a certain area.
I did recognize however, that you clearly have an apparantly sound base of knowledge on bayonets, a topic I havent really engaged much in since several decades ago. It remains a largely untapped area of arms study, and often regarded as too 'pedestrian' I have assumed because of its 'other ranks' and common associations. I recall great talks with RDC Evans though from years ago, and I truly admired his passion for these weapons.
He used to write a column monthly called "Cold Steel" that was a goldmine of information.

I appreciate your kind recognition of my admittedly superficial notes which are from simply brushing up with references at hand. It has seemed to me that German bayonets would be one of the broadest fields, the Solingen industrial machine not withstanding, and the Prussian military prevalence.

It is interesting what you mention about Asian bayonets, and it does not seem these were as prevalent as in the west. We have had some most interesting discussions about some extreme rarities such as the form from India which I believe was on a matchlock musket and perhaps flintlock later..also the rare 'kukri' bayonet of the Gurkhas. As I mentioned, it seems like most bayonets of 'sword' type after the socket bayonet relied on a bar slide like these, and apparantly the innovation arose about end of the 18th century. I recall the Baker's as they have always commanded high prices, and I believe there was another 'elcho' if memory serves.

I'm glad you brought this topic up, as clearly bayonets as noted are not a widely known and understood topic, at least in any particular depth. It is always great when we get a good topic of this nature and we can all learn a bit, as always, together

Celtan, great posts and thank you for sharing those examples!!! My reference to the etymology of hirschfanger was found in passing, and not meant to contradict yours..clearly more research is needed !!

Thanks very much,
Jim

celtan · 13th September 2010, 12:27 AM

Jimbo'

Sorry I have been absent from the forum so long, personal issues and a hectic lifestyle. : P

It's always a pleasure to read your well-written contributions. : )

I have a large collection of bayonets: Arisakas, Mausers, Mannlichers, Danish, USCW, SAW, Nazi daggers, WWII trench knives, etc...I have never posted them here since I though it was out-of-bounds materiel.

Regarding the Kukri, it's interesting how this particular blade-shape came from the Himalayas, to Greece's Kopis, to the Carthaginians and then to Iberian Falcatas. The Spanish Army still uses a bayonet blade based on same, specially the Legion.

BTW, when I'm wrong, kindly point it out. I knew a guy that went around dojos with a black-belt inscribed "stupid" in kanji, thinking it meant "great warrior". I always thought "Deer Fang" did not sound right, akin to "Bunny Fury". OTOH, "Deer-catcher" sounds just right. : )

Best Regards to all,

Manuel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Hi Ron,
No problem, I know how frustrating it is when posts or threads go unanswered or seemingly unnoticed, and honestly try to answer as many of these as I can, despite not claiming any knowledge in a certain area.
I did recognize however, that you clearly have an apparantly sound base of knowledge on bayonets, a topic I havent really engaged much in since several decades ago. It remains a largely untapped area of arms study, and often regarded as too 'pedestrian' I have assumed because of its 'other ranks' and common associations. I recall great talks with RDC Evans though from years ago, and I truly admired his passion for these weapons.
He used to write a column monthly called "Cold Steel" that was a goldmine of information.

I appreciate your kind recognition of my admittedly superficial notes which are from simply brushing up with references at hand. It has seemed to me that German bayonets would be one of the broadest fields, the Solingen industrial machine not withstanding, and the Prussian military prevalence.

It is interesting what you mention about Asian bayonets, and it does not seem these were as prevalent as in the west. We have had some most interesting discussions about some extreme rarities such as the form from India which I believe was on a matchlock musket and perhaps flintlock later..also the rare 'kukri' bayonet of the Gurkhas. As I mentioned, it seems like most bayonets of 'sword' type after the socket bayonet relied on a bar slide like these, and apparantly the innovation arose about end of the 18th century. I recall the Baker's as they have always commanded high prices, and I believe there was another 'elcho' if memory serves.

I'm glad you brought this topic up, as clearly bayonets as noted are not a widely known and understood topic, at least in any particular depth. It is always great when we get a good topic of this nature and we can all learn a bit, as always, together

Celtan, great posts and thank you for sharing those examples!!! My reference to the etymology of hirschfanger was found in passing, and not meant to contradict yours..clearly more research is needed !!

Thanks very much,
Jim

Ron Anderson · 13th September 2010, 01:08 AM

Well, thank you both Celtan and Jim. You are both highly informed and extremely pleasant to chat with.

I would probably never have bought this if it had been more standard but its unusual nature prompted me to get it and I think it was a lucky find.

However, I may pass it on to someone more passionate about bayonets. Jim, you're right - it really is a specialised field of collecting. I'm not that informed, frankly. But I guess I have learned a little along the way.

I only like the rare ones, actually.

Regards
Ron

Jim McDougall · 13th September 2010, 05:35 AM

Celtan, its good to have you posting again, you have been missing for a while! Thanks for the kind words, and the great story on the misworded Kanji belt !! LOL!!!
On the bayonets, they really are an OK topic, even though sometimes they extend past our normal chronological boundaries, I think as I have noted they're overall vastly under discussed in collecting in many cases. As we have often seen in the ethnographic section, these blades were often recycled into many locally mounted weapons.

Ron, thank you also, and I agree this one was a lucky find. At least you have a better idea on it when you do let it go, and I think we have all learned a bit more on this rather seldom discussed topic. I'm with you on the rare examples, which are inclined to have a much more intriguing history than the commonly seen examples which have become almost generic in many cases with thier volume in availability.

All best regards,
Jim

12th September 2010, 08:34 AM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Ron, I cannot speak for the 'learned members' here, but one thing I have discovered over many years here is that simply because there are no responses in a timely fashion to a thread emphatically does not mean the members have no knowledge of an item. I know that I certainly do not pretend to know about everything, but I typically spend time researching and learning about the topic at hand, and actually enjoy learning in this way. Without going into the history of the bayonet itself, basically the first bayonets, the plug bayonets, in military sense, had a relatively short life span, giving way to the socket bayonet. The plug bayonet however, remained a favorite for hunters well into the 19th century, and even beyond in some countries (see R.D.C. Evans, "The Plug Bayonet"). Howard Blackmore ("Hunting Weapons", 1971, p.67) notes that "...the military, more interested than the sporting fraternity in the ability of a gun to shoot with its bayonet fixed were quickly to abandon the plug bayonet in favor of the socket bayonet and then the clip on sword bayonet". While the site you linked shows the M1848 Danish hirshfanger, it is clearly not the same design but the bar slot seems remarkably the same. I seems that these bar slot fixtures or similar notched slides are actually fairly well established on sword bayonets, such as the Baker types in England c.1820 and as you note, the Danish model. Most sword bayonets of these times were cast brass and cheaply produced as many 'other ranks' sidearms for various specialized units and line infantry, artillery etc. In "Collectors Pictorial Book of Bayonets", Frederick Stephens, 1971, #36) is shown a Prussian hirschfanger c.1790, which is remarkably like yours, but without as much of a vestigial crossguard, It has the same simple hilt and domed type pommel. I would speculate that yours is quite likely a Prussian or German state model later in the 19th century to a Jager regiment soldier. The Jagers, as you probably already know, were military units who were recruited from huntsman and foresters in European regions, and were enlisted as reconaissance, skirmishers, snipers and often foragers. As they often furnished thier own weapons, they often carried hirshfangers (actually means deer catcher from a reference I saw), as secondary weapons. There are many examples of hirshfangers which are combination weapons and are mounted with firearm locks and barrel which are seen from 17th and into 18th century. This tradition seems to have been present as early as 16th century even with wheelock mechanisms. It would seem that the hirshfanger here is military, as noted, and again, probably German, about mid to third quarter 19th c. I would be inclined to agree that this particular type of sword bayonet is indeed somewhat rare, most of the sword bayonets such as Bakers and some others are as well, and bayonet collecting is a deeply specialized field. Just how rare this might actually be is hard to say, as I note again, this is far outside my field of study. It is an intriguing piece and as always, illustrates that even the simplest appearing weapons can often have fascinating histories with the, All best regards, Jim

12th September 2010, 09:08 AM	#2
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Jim Sorry if my last post seemed dismissive. Sometimes, the printed word can be misleading. My occasionally laconic style might seem disrespectful at times. It did indeed seem as if no-one had any insight into this item. However, your post has certainly given me a lot of insight into its likely origins. I'm inclined to agree with you on the age/period of the item, and was always of that opinion. I guess I recognised it as rare because I have a certain acquiantance with bayonets, and this is the first of its type I have ever seen. In fact, at first I even questioned whether it was European. I thought it might be Asian! Thanks for pointing that the Baker bayonet is in the same family of weapons. I had not thought of that, but you are no doubt correct. I am also more familiar with British military history than German. You are right, bayonets are a real specialty. And German bayonets are a specialised field within a specialised field. I think it is perhaps the popularity of German bayonet collecting, as much as anything else, that has prompted such impressive prices for hirschfanger bayonets on eBay. I confess my knowledge is somewhat (actually, extremely) patchy in this area too. Regards Ron

12th September 2010, 08:15 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Hi Ron, No problem, I know how frustrating it is when posts or threads go unanswered or seemingly unnoticed, and honestly try to answer as many of these as I can, despite not claiming any knowledge in a certain area. I did recognize however, that you clearly have an apparantly sound base of knowledge on bayonets, a topic I havent really engaged much in since several decades ago. It remains a largely untapped area of arms study, and often regarded as too 'pedestrian' I have assumed because of its 'other ranks' and common associations. I recall great talks with RDC Evans though from years ago, and I truly admired his passion for these weapons. He used to write a column monthly called "Cold Steel" that was a goldmine of information. I appreciate your kind recognition of my admittedly superficial notes which are from simply brushing up with references at hand. It has seemed to me that German bayonets would be one of the broadest fields, the Solingen industrial machine not withstanding, and the Prussian military prevalence. It is interesting what you mention about Asian bayonets, and it does not seem these were as prevalent as in the west. We have had some most interesting discussions about some extreme rarities such as the form from India which I believe was on a matchlock musket and perhaps flintlock later..also the rare 'kukri' bayonet of the Gurkhas. As I mentioned, it seems like most bayonets of 'sword' type after the socket bayonet relied on a bar slide like these, and apparantly the innovation arose about end of the 18th century. I recall the Baker's as they have always commanded high prices, and I believe there was another 'elcho' if memory serves. I'm glad you brought this topic up, as clearly bayonets as noted are not a widely known and understood topic, at least in any particular depth. It is always great when we get a good topic of this nature and we can all learn a bit, as always, together Celtan, great posts and thank you for sharing those examples!!! My reference to the etymology of hirschfanger was found in passing, and not meant to contradict yours..clearly more research is needed !! Thanks very much, Jim

13th September 2010, 01:08 AM	#5
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Well, thank you both Celtan and Jim. You are both highly informed and extremely pleasant to chat with. I would probably never have bought this if it had been more standard but its unusual nature prompted me to get it and I think it was a lucky find. However, I may pass it on to someone more passionate about bayonets. Jim, you're right - it really is a specialised field of collecting. I'm not that informed, frankly. But I guess I have learned a little along the way. I only like the rare ones, actually. Regards Ron

13th September 2010, 05:35 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,459	Celtan, its good to have you posting again, you have been missing for a while! Thanks for the kind words, and the great story on the misworded Kanji belt !! LOL!!! On the bayonets, they really are an OK topic, even though sometimes they extend past our normal chronological boundaries, I think as I have noted they're overall vastly under discussed in collecting in many cases. As we have often seen in the ethnographic section, these blades were often recycled into many locally mounted weapons. Ron, thank you also, and I agree this one was a lucky find. At least you have a better idea on it when you do let it go, and I think we have all learned a bit more on this rather seldom discussed topic. I'm with you on the rare examples, which are inclined to have a much more intriguing history than the commonly seen examples which have become almost generic in many cases with thier volume in availability. All best regards, Jim