New - Peninsula Malay Anak Alang

[A. G. Maisey]

Originally Posted by BigG

Different aspect... same culture.. The Keris is a mark status in the past... we all know this... just like samurais who compose poetry to show of their intelligenc... so do Keris owners who compose pantuns...

Big G, please accept my thanks both for your pantun, and for your illuminating comments.

I am aware of the place of the pantun in Malay culture, I am also aware of your fondness for it, and have read the ones you have published on your site. However, some other readers of this Forum may not understand the pantun, nor its place in Malay culture.

Since the pantun is a poetic form that is unique to Malay culture, perhaps you may care to further demonstrate your intelligence by explaining the form and place within Malay culture of the pantun.

It is always difficult to translate verse in one language into verse in a different language, if I may, I would most respectfully suggest that you accurately translate the Malay language of the original pantun into English, rather than attempt to retain the poetic essence in English. By attempted retention of a poetic form you lose the essence of the original Malay.

When we translate poetry from one language to another, it is in general accepted that the meaning of the poem should be prioritised over poetic form. Sometimes it is possible to retain both meaning and form, especially where similar languages and cultures are involved, but in translation from Malay to English the cultural and language difference is simply too great to permit this.

For example, consider what happens when Yevgeny Yevtushenko is translated to English, or consider the difficulties that can be encountered when we try to translate ,say, Lord Byron into Malay.

It is a sad fact of literature that ideas and forms that work well in one language or culture often do not work very well at all in a different language or culture.

[PenangsangII]

I love the phrase

"Brutal but elegant..." kind of remind me of my self.......

[BigG]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Big G, please accept my thanks both for your pantun, and for your illuminating comments.

I am aware of the place of the pantun in Malay culture, I am also aware of your fondness for it, and have read the ones you have published on your site. However, some other readers of this Forum may not understand the pantun, nor its place in Malay culture.

Since the pantun is a poetic form that is unique to Malay culture, perhaps you may care to further demonstrate your intelligence by explaining the form and place within Malay culture of the pantun.

It is always difficult to translate verse in one language into verse in a different language, if I may, I would most respectfully suggest that you accurately translate the Malay language of the original pantun into English, rather than attempt to retain the poetic essence in English. By attempted retention of a poetic form you lose the essence of the original Malay.

When we translate poetry from one language to another, it is in general accepted that the meaning of the poem should be prioritised over poetic form. Sometimes it is possible to retain both meaning and form, especially where similar languages and cultures are involved, but in translation from Malay to English the cultural and language difference is simply too great to permit this.

For example, consider what happens when Yevgeny Yevtushenko is translated to English, or consider the difficulties that can be encountered when we try to translate ,say, Lord Byron into Malay.

It is a sad fact of literature that ideas and forms that work well in one language or culture often do not work very well at all in a different language or culture.

Dear Mr Maisey,

Thank you for your advice... Perhaps I should submit my pantuns to you for your approval before submitting it here... then again... maybe not...

[A. G. Maisey]

Oh dear me no!

I would never presume to accept such responsibility.

That "--- maybe not." should be a "definitely not".

These pantuns are your work, and should remain your work, apart from which this form is completely outside my repertoire.

I would most respectfully request however, that you note my comments were made as a respectful suggestion.

The nature of a suggestion is that it something presented for consideration.

The nature of advice is that it is offered as a recommendation for future action.

I have not offered you any advice, merely a suggestion.

I would hesitate to offer my advice in any respect to one as intelligent as you clearly are, Big G.

The art of the pantun is not one I can claim, however, I can claim some small aptitude in some other literary fields, and some would consider that my respectful suggestion could perhaps be considered by one wishing to showcase his literary skills.

In any case, my suggestion in respect of your translations is a side issue, consider it, or do not consider it, this is of absolutely no moment to me. It matters not one iota to me if your original pantuns in Malay lose much of their cleverness and beauty when you attempt to replicate in English.

However, may I repeat my request that you who are so skilled in this literary form devote just a little of your time and intelligence to explaining for those who are outside your culture the place of the pantun in Malay culture, and its form.In the absence of such understanding, I fear that much of your art is neither appreciated nor understood by many amongst us.

As an example, if an educated person whose cultural and language base was English encountered a pantun, he would judge it by standards within his experience, and as such he would very probably undervalue it, having in his mind the rhyming games of children.

My suggestion is that you consider provision of an explanation of the pantun and its place in your culture, in order that your art be given the weight that is its due by those lacking an understanding of this aspect of your literary tradition.

[BigG]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

I would most respectfully request however, that you note my comments were made as a respectful suggestion.

Yes, like others here... I find that I am starting to get well acquainted with your notion of respect...

And to all forumers, my most humble apolagy for my childish rhymes... Hope that my lack of applied intelligence has not detract you too much...

now then back to the forum...