Help with Identification please

Alam Shah · 5th September 2010, 12:54 PM

Good effort imas560..

sometimes I use kitchen aluminium foil on the hilt.. better than a piece of cloth, which is a fire hazard, imho..

A. G. Maisey · 5th September 2010, 02:17 PM

I suggest that you grip the blade with your bare hand about halfway along its length.

I also suggest that you lose the cloth , it is entirely, absolutely, 100% not necessary, and is as Alam Shah says, a fire risk.

Grip the hilt with your bare hand; the hilt does not need any protection from anything, because the flame is not going to go anywhere near it, mainly because you are not going to burn your hand, are you?

Play the candle flame over the entire sorsoran area and alternate the sides of the blade that you heat.

You will feel the hilt becoming a little warm, and you will feel the blade becoming quite warm; when the blade is uncomfortable to hold in your bare hand, stop heating it.

The heat in the blade will continue to travel up the pesi.

Using a piece of old rag so that you can grip the blade without burning your hand or cutting it, grip the heated area firmly and gently try twisting the hilt, do not force it; as you twist you also need to exert a gentle force to pull it away from the blade, if you press your two thumbs together you can better control this force.

It only takes a few minutes for the blade to get too hot to hold, and it only takes a few more minutes for it to cool down, so you can repeat this procedure a few times.

If you don't move it during the first day's session, or second day's session, you just keep on trying until you do.

This is not a real old keris, and you should not have too much difficulty with it.

PenangsangII · 6th September 2010, 03:16 AM

Dear All,

i was away during the weekend, so was unable to reply a few entries "condemning" my favored method in removing stuck up keris hilts.

Like BigG said earlier, soaking in boiled water is the method prescribed in Malaysian keris community (i believe including Singapore). I'm surprised that Alam Shah didnt know about it, and only practised the so-called "professional" method, i.e heating method.

I dont know what "professional" really means here, but I guess it must have come from the current era mranggis and keris collectors. But boiling method is prescribed by the elders in Malaysian keris community. Malaysian keris culture has not evolve much since Majapahit/Malaka era, compare to Indonesian counterparts esp in Jawa. You can assume whatever I wanted to tell here.

its fine if anyone dosnt agree with the boiling method, but denigrating the practice of certain respected people in the keris community as "excessive" or "close to idiocy" is totally uncalled for.... totally out of the way of the keris... and by the person/s who doesnt/dont know the philosophy of the keris....

Its also fine if anyone treats keris as mere collection, but to me it much more. Its a way of life. and that's a very big difference.

Just like BigG had said earlier, the blade is EVERYTHING... and by putting the blade into "uncomfortable" situation, i.e. direct contact to flame, I can also call this practice "close to idiocy"... in the perspective of Malaysian keris community............ see, its actually from what perspective we look into things....

If heating method is a demonstrable fact, so is boiling method. I would like to ask, the so-called professional or very senior and knowledgable collectors ( i mean collectors... not a users...), have you tried using boiling method before calling it as unfrenly to keris care taking? I tried both ways before, that is why I stand by what I said earlier.

Rick · 6th September 2010, 03:43 AM

Very good then; we have different methods of removal; one may pick the method one likes .

Yes ?

There are many ways to skin a cat ; no ?

We'll move on now ....

A. G. Maisey · 6th September 2010, 04:21 AM

I thank you most sincerely for your further post , Penangsang.

I have learnt much from that which you have written.

I hope you will continue to provide such revealing information.

David · 6th September 2010, 06:09 AM

As Rick has pointed out, both these methods have been rather fully described and people (both collectors and "users" of keris) can now make an intelligent decision as to which method they believe will do the least possible damage to their keris. Personally i have tried and been fully successful with the heating method, but i have never tried the boiling water method. However, it is not necessary for me to whack my finger with a hammer to know that it will hurt and probably make my finger bleed.
It confuses me a bit that Penangang would consider a small candle flame on a blade an "uncomfortable situation" considering that the blade is born out of a forge fire much hotter than that. Of course, i am not a professional or even a very knowledgeable collector, but i actually do indeed use keris in my daily ritual practice. So i do not treat my keris as a "mere collection" either.
Penangang, you should also read Shahrial's post more carefully. He did not say that he was unaware of the boiling method. He said that indeed he was, but that he didn't use it himself and added that "Most of my fellow collectors here, do not subscribe to this treatment, as well, although we are aware of it".

PenangsangII · 6th September 2010, 07:37 AM

Thanks David for your further comments....

The "digdaya" or yoni of the keris is imbued after the completion of the keris, although the process may take as early as the empu doing his tapa brata before he actually hold his hammer..... imagine that someone you love, or care, suddenly you put him to fire or flame.... he is OK, he wont die because of the small fire, but if were him, I would decide to go..... some may even attempt to exact revenge in any possible manner. Most of us have the "keris tindih" to defuse this situation, but how about new collectors or even senior collectors who dont have in their possession the "ampuh" keris tindih or "pelapik". I tried to refrain discussing this subject earlier in the forum, as many forumers here dont believe in such a thing.

And I dont understand why do you have to speak up for Shahrial... yes I do understand what he was saying.... But to claim that one DID hear or know about "boiling method" than claimed DIDNOT know anybody who did it (whilst BigG rightfully wrote its generally acceptable in Malaysia & S'pore) is preposterous. Even when the hilt removal is handled by "tukang sarung" in the Peninsular, believe you me, big chances are, they would use the boiling method. I am not sure whether Shahrial is speaking on behalf of all collectors in S'pore or not, but the fact BigG mentioned its a normal practice in Singapore, reaffirms my belief it is a normal method in the Peninsular (Malaysia & Singapore)

In short, my advise on the hilt removal method is out of concern for the blade itself (after the heat exposure you'll have to clean the carbon smut on the blade surface, sometime painstakingly as i have learned before), and because of my concern to the yoni. There is no way my intention is to mislead fellow forumers, or cause unnecessary debate of wrong or right. Both can be wrong, and both can be right.

5th September 2010, 12:54 PM	#1
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Good effort imas560.. sometimes I use kitchen aluminium foil on the hilt.. better than a piece of cloth, which is a fire hazard, imho..

5th September 2010, 02:17 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	I suggest that you grip the blade with your bare hand about halfway along its length. I also suggest that you lose the cloth , it is entirely, absolutely, 100% not necessary, and is as Alam Shah says, a fire risk. Grip the hilt with your bare hand; the hilt does not need any protection from anything, because the flame is not going to go anywhere near it, mainly because you are not going to burn your hand, are you? Play the candle flame over the entire sorsoran area and alternate the sides of the blade that you heat. You will feel the hilt becoming a little warm, and you will feel the blade becoming quite warm; when the blade is uncomfortable to hold in your bare hand, stop heating it. The heat in the blade will continue to travel up the pesi. Using a piece of old rag so that you can grip the blade without burning your hand or cutting it, grip the heated area firmly and gently try twisting the hilt, do not force it; as you twist you also need to exert a gentle force to pull it away from the blade, if you press your two thumbs together you can better control this force. It only takes a few minutes for the blade to get too hot to hold, and it only takes a few more minutes for it to cool down, so you can repeat this procedure a few times. If you don't move it during the first day's session, or second day's session, you just keep on trying until you do. This is not a real old keris, and you should not have too much difficulty with it.

6th September 2010, 03:16 AM	#3
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Dear All, i was away during the weekend, so was unable to reply a few entries "condemning" my favored method in removing stuck up keris hilts. Like BigG said earlier, soaking in boiled water is the method prescribed in Malaysian keris community (i believe including Singapore). I'm surprised that Alam Shah didnt know about it, and only practised the so-called "professional" method, i.e heating method. I dont know what "professional" really means here, but I guess it must have come from the current era mranggis and keris collectors. But boiling method is prescribed by the elders in Malaysian keris community. Malaysian keris culture has not evolve much since Majapahit/Malaka era, compare to Indonesian counterparts esp in Jawa. You can assume whatever I wanted to tell here. its fine if anyone dosnt agree with the boiling method, but denigrating the practice of certain respected people in the keris community as "excessive" or "close to idiocy" is totally uncalled for.... totally out of the way of the keris... and by the person/s who doesnt/dont know the philosophy of the keris.... Its also fine if anyone treats keris as mere collection, but to me it much more. Its a way of life. and that's a very big difference. Just like BigG had said earlier, the blade is EVERYTHING... and by putting the blade into "uncomfortable" situation, i.e. direct contact to flame, I can also call this practice "close to idiocy"... in the perspective of Malaysian keris community............ see, its actually from what perspective we look into things.... If heating method is a demonstrable fact, so is boiling method. I would like to ask, the so-called professional or very senior and knowledgable collectors ( i mean collectors... not a users...), have you tried using boiling method before calling it as unfrenly to keris care taking? I tried both ways before, that is why I stand by what I said earlier.

6th September 2010, 03:43 AM	#4
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Very good then; we have different methods of removal; one may pick the method one likes . Yes ? There are many ways to skin a cat ; no ? We'll move on now ....

6th September 2010, 04:21 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,047	I thank you most sincerely for your further post , Penangsang. I have learnt much from that which you have written. I hope you will continue to provide such revealing information.

6th September 2010, 06:09 AM	#6
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,228	As Rick has pointed out, both these methods have been rather fully described and people (both collectors and "users" of keris) can now make an intelligent decision as to which method they believe will do the least possible damage to their keris. Personally i have tried and been fully successful with the heating method, but i have never tried the boiling water method. However, it is not necessary for me to whack my finger with a hammer to know that it will hurt and probably make my finger bleed. It confuses me a bit that Penangang would consider a small candle flame on a blade an "uncomfortable situation" considering that the blade is born out of a forge fire much hotter than that. Of course, i am not a professional or even a very knowledgeable collector, but i actually do indeed use keris in my daily ritual practice. So i do not treat my keris as a "mere collection" either. Penangang, you should also read Shahrial's post more carefully. He did not say that he was unaware of the boiling method. He said that indeed he was, but that he didn't use it himself and added that "Most of my fellow collectors here, do not subscribe to this treatment, as well, although we are aware of it".

6th September 2010, 07:37 AM	#7
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Thanks David for your further comments.... The "digdaya" or yoni of the keris is imbued after the completion of the keris, although the process may take as early as the empu doing his tapa brata before he actually hold his hammer..... imagine that someone you love, or care, suddenly you put him to fire or flame.... he is OK, he wont die because of the small fire, but if were him, I would decide to go..... some may even attempt to exact revenge in any possible manner. Most of us have the "keris tindih" to defuse this situation, but how about new collectors or even senior collectors who dont have in their possession the "ampuh" keris tindih or "pelapik". I tried to refrain discussing this subject earlier in the forum, as many forumers here dont believe in such a thing. And I dont understand why do you have to speak up for Shahrial... yes I do understand what he was saying.... But to claim that one DID hear or know about "boiling method" than claimed DIDNOT know anybody who did it (whilst BigG rightfully wrote its generally acceptable in Malaysia & S'pore) is preposterous. Even when the hilt removal is handled by "tukang sarung" in the Peninsular, believe you me, big chances are, they would use the boiling method. I am not sure whether Shahrial is speaking on behalf of all collectors in S'pore or not, but the fact BigG mentioned its a normal practice in Singapore, reaffirms my belief it is a normal method in the Peninsular (Malaysia & Singapore) In short, my advise on the hilt removal method is out of concern for the blade itself (after the heat exposure you'll have to clean the carbon smut on the blade surface, sometime painstakingly as i have learned before), and because of my concern to the yoni. There is no way my intention is to mislead fellow forumers, or cause unnecessary debate of wrong or right. Both can be wrong, and both can be right.