Help with Identification please

[Jussi M.]

Greetings,

Sorry to jump in like this but I feel compelled to and in the following I´ll explain why.

Originally Posted by BigG

In the mind of many collectors here, the blade & the Peksi is everything. Thus, the manner that is employed. Not everyone do this, but many do.

There is a rich seam of untapped knowledge in terms of practices that are based on matters of practicality and customs amongs the collectors here that are unknown by many forumers. Many are not motivated to share but some are... What penangsang have done in making us aware of one of the practicalities of the collectors here should be applauded. It may not to the liking and may astound many, but it was shared in the spirit of openness.

Yes, it is true that there is variance to methods used to maintain and restore a keris and it´s dress within different areas and groups of people associated with the keris. That is OK, each to his own, and all that. Yes, it is wonderful that knowledge is shared – is that not the very reason for the existence of this forum? Yes, it is true that - and I quote - "In the mind of many collectors here, the blade & the Peksi is everything. Thus, the manner that is employed." That is true also BUT, and this is a big but, all here do not share this view. In fact to many - myself included - the dress is also of utmost importance, sometimes even more so than the actual blade itself regardless of how heretic that may appear to others.

Most people here like myself are ignorant and participate in order to learn - to ask those with more experience what and what not to do in order to not mess things up. Think about the possible consequences that may result if someone ignorant who has bought a keris for it´s dress decides to clean and re-stain it´s blade and decides to follow PenangsangII´s advise:

(emphasis added)

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

to play it safe, in order to remove the hilt that is attached to the pesi using damar/jabung etc, just soak the entire hilt in boiled water.... in less than 3 minutes, normally the hilt can easily be removed.

And to clean the blade safely, just soak it in water (best is pure water coming down from waterfall or spring water...) mix with fresh pineapple cubes (pineapple skin is better) and mengkudu (Morinda Citrifolia). This is traditional method practised by Javanese living in Malaysia.

It is clear that the above statement is made with the best of intentions but it stems from a frame in which dress is seen as something disposable. Yet for many collectors dress matters. Thus it is of utmost importance to address the pros and cons when describing these things here as people´s values differ. For someone like me thus the proposed method is not safe but a very likely guarantee to end up in the most saddest of conditions.

One should always remember the audience one is addressing. Little knowledge is dangerous if it is not understood where it stems from and what it´s implications are. Reflected against this background I feel that Mr. Maisey´s commentary on this boiling the hilt-practice within the frame of this international collectors forum was to a point if - pun intended - admittedly a bit pointy. For me personally the dress with all it´s components parts are alike culturally and artistically appreciable as is the actual blade itself. Other peoples mileage may – and does – vary, and that is why these "other people" should always be kept in mind when addressing procedures such as the proposed method of removing the hilt on an international forum such as this.

Thanks,

J.

[A. G. Maisey]

Big G, I have read and understood this most recent post of yours, the one prior to it, and the post of Penangsang.

The comments I have made to date I personally consider to be very restrained,and in no way criticism of an unfair nature, which of course is the meaning of "denigrate". In light of the recommendations made, even though made in good faith, I consider that I have been overly polite and quite delicate in my comments.

Most certainly I have criticised the methods which are apparently employed in Singapore and Malaysia, by those entrusted with the preservation of the creations of their ancestors. However, this criticism is no way unfair. The methods described by Penangsang, and supported by yourself are methods which will cause damage, they are not methods which can be used in full assurance that no damage will result to a hilt.

Perhaps sometimes immersion in boiling water will assist in freeing a hilt from a pesi, but at what cost?

Penangsang has mentioned that he has used boiling water a number of times without damage to the hilt. I would suggest two things, firstly he has been lucky, and secondly that if he followed exactly the process he advised in his post, it is probable that the hilt could have been removed without the application of any kind of heat, but just by the application of a little professional skill.

Not only can these methods not be relied upon not to damage a hilt, but they can most certainly be relied upon to create an increased level of risk of breakage of the pesi where that pesi is heavily rusted and is being retained in the hilt by rust.This risk will be multiplied where the hilt is of ivory, bone or horn. rather than wood. Then of course, we have the tayuman situation, and old tayuman hilts are not low cost disposables.

The judicious use of heat will loosen any pesi , whether it has been retained by rust, jabung or anything else.

Boiling water will not be effective in all cases, but can be relied upon to raise the level of risk of a broken pesi, as well as a split hilt.

If one has no concern as to whether the hilt is damaged, and the pesi is broken, by all means immerse the hilt in boiling water.

However, if one wishes to free the hilt without breaking the pesi and with no damage to the hilt, then one should learn how to use heat to do this.

I most certainly accept that the methods I have recommended are not the only methods, however, they are methods used in Central Jawa by people with a great deal more experience than I have, in some cases by people who can count generations of their forebears as mranggis before them.The methods I have recommended are well tested, and they do work, not only that, but used correctly they do not ever result in damage to any part of the keris.

What I have stated here is not opinion.

It is demonstrable fact.

[BigG]

Firstly let me state that I agree that the dress of the keris is of equal importance to the blade of the keris. I have personally never used the boiling method and have been careful to inform ay craftsmen who would restore pieces that I own to not employ this method. I personally value the asthetics of the dress as much as I do the blade. The pcs that I have shared wth here and would share more in the future, wld attest to this... But what I am stating here is the fact, that this method is employed by many, not all... but many as a means of removing a hilt. And I have given the forumers the rationale of why this method is being employed by many in this particular region...

And that rationale in my opinion is bcos of the inordinate importance that is given by them to the blade as well as the peksi as oppose to the dress, especially the hilt. The other rationale to this is because of the relative ease in which a hilt can be replace here... new or antique... I have endeavoured to inform the forumers here, newbies & veterans alike that there is an alternative but it is chosen as a result of the specific context of the situation found here. That this method is found to be shocking or unacceptable should not detract from the fact that it exist and is being employed. I accept that it is unacceptable to many in the forum... It is also something that would not be resorted to by many here, including myself... but that it exist, and is considered valid by peope for the reasons that I have mentioned should also be made known.

Be critical of this method if you feel needful to by all means... Explain the contextual rationale behind it to make the forumers understand why this may not be something that they should consider, by all means... but surely by any standard of decorum... labelling a member's effort at disclosing what he applies and intend to share in good faith as an act of barbarism & idiocy would be far from what wld be considered as restrained. We may disagree about what is being said, we should endeavour to tamper its impact and we should if we believe that we know better... but we should not maligned these views the way that it has been done here...

As we Malays would say it;
"Orang berbudi kita berbahasa"...
As they are civil so are we courteous. ..

Lets reciprocate ideas and views sounded off in good faith in the manner that it deserves...

[David]

Gentlemen, please allow me to state my views here.
We have here a new collector seeking advice on methods of cleaning and restoration. I think that it is important that we consider when we give advise in such a case that the new and relatively uninformed collector may well try a method when it is suggested to him. I personally would feel remiss if i did not stand up and yell loudly from the hilltop if i were to see someone suggest a methodology which i felt could be dangerous or damaging to any part of a keris. I think that for the most part we all consider the blade to take a prime position of importance when we deal with the keris. However, i also believe that the vast majority of collectors on this forum are also interested in preserving dress, especially antique dress, and most particularly well crafted dress whenever possible. I am also not completely convinced that it is always the Malay's notion that the dress is unimportant compared to the blade. I can't, for instance, see any of our Malay collectors using this boiling water method on their favorite antique keris tajong. Neither am i convinced that well carved antique tajong hilt are at all easy to replace, even for those who live in the region and i might be wrong, but whenever i have seen tajong presented the emphasis of importance always seems to be on the dress, not the blade.
I don't think that anyone is dismissing the actuality of this practice of boiling hilts as one that it commonly done. We are simply remarking on the fact that commonly done or not, it is not a good idea. To present such a method to an impressionable new collect is also not a good idea, especially when methods have already been presented that have been proven to work and not damage any part of the keris.
I am not sure that i would use the words that Mr. Maisey has in describing this practice, however, i would not argue with his viewpoint either. Many things throughout history have been accepted by certain facet of society, but that did not make them necessarily good ideas. If you would allow an admittedly extreme example, it was once considered necessary,right and proper for a woman to throw herself (or be thrown) upon her husbands funeral pyre (sati) in Hindu culture. That it was condoned, that it was a fact, didn't make it a good idea.
I suggest that we proceed with caution here in this discussion. I do not believe it is anyone's intention to dismiss or insult the practices of any person or group of people here so i trust that we can all remain civil and calm. I see nothing wrong with discussing different ideas and method used for anything keris related on this forum, but i also think that it is most important that we make clear the possible dangers that some of these methods might hold, especially for impressionable new collectors seeking the best and lest invasive methods of restoration. Not to do so would be irresponsible

[A. G. Maisey]

Big G, I thank you for your further explanation.

The situation as it applies in Singapore and Malaysia is now much more clear to me. Perhaps if something like this had been written initially you may have been able to avoid taking umbrage at my most civil and restrained comments.

My comments were most certainly critical, and were intended to be.

To offer advice such this to people with little experience or knowledge could result in severe loss for such people.Apparently you concur with this point of view, as you now advise us that you do not subscribe to the boiling water philosophy.

May I suggest that you swallow your bile and re-read my post that has seemingly caused you such offence?

To assist you in this I quote here the words to which you seem to object:-

In my most humble opinion the practice here related of immersing a complete hilt into boiling water in order to remove it from a blade is most certainly barbaric and verges upon idiocy.

Please take note:-

I have given my opinion that the act of immersing a hilt into boiling water is an act that I consider to be barbaric and verging upon idiocy.

I have not said that Penangsang's effort at relating this act was one of barbarism and near idiocy; in fact, I offer Penangsang my sincere thanks for providing me with this information, as it permits me to form an opinion of the level of professionalism that is to be found in respect of keris restoration in Singapore and Malaysia.

However, although I appreciate this invaluable gain in knowledge, I repeat that to offer such advice to the inexperienced is more than a little irresponsible.

There is a very great difference between describing an act as barbaric and verging upon idiocy, and describing the recounting of that act as barbaric and verging upon idiocy.

I'm sure that when you have reread and understood what I have written you will be able to appreciate this difference.

Now, to address your little gem of wisdom, which seems to imply that I may have been discourteous.

Big G, I always endeavor to be as polite as is possible when I write in this forum. In this present exchange I have not varied from this approach. I have restrained myself from saying what I would like to say about this boiling water business, and I have directed my very restrained criticism at the act itself. My remarks in respect of those who engage in this practice have been limited to offering some advice, which, as with all advice, they are free to accept or reject as they see fit:-

I would most sincerely suggest that the people who currently subscribe to the boiling water philosophy would be doing themselves and their clients a very great service by seeking out some instruction from true professionals in this field of keris restoration.

I most earnestly request that you read only the words I have written, rather than to imagine that which I have not written.

In order to demonstrate that I bear you no ill will because of your misrepresentation of my comments, I will terminate my involvement in this exchange at this point. Should you have anything to add, please do so in confidence that I will not respond to any further of your posts in this matter.

[BigG]

Mr Maisey... I fully understand what it is that you had said and the intended manner of its saying...

As a Malay would put it, I truly understand what has been written "yang tersurat" and what is implied behind it "yang tersirat". I end this exchange with you with a gift of a Pantun (Traditional Malay quatrain)...

Tumbuh di rimba si daun palas
Gugur di hutan berbelas-belas
Kata hamba kata beralas
Kata tuan duri berhias

By the woods the leaves a-twining
Green grown their tendrils a-winding
My words... are words a-soothing
Thy own.. barbed and wounding

Rgds..

[Alam Shah]

Dear friends, I live in Singapore and have never used the boiling water treatment. Most of my fellow collectors here, do not subscribe to this treatment, as well, although we are aware of it.

Personally, I value the few old hilts that I have and would prefer to use other techniques of hilt removal to prevent damage to them. Hilts are easily replaced but in the olden days, they are highly prized item, normally made of selected quality materials, with certain attributes to them. From a cultural aspect, it does represents something that if understood, one would value it.

Currently I do have a piece which I have difficulty removing. A Sumatran keris, with what I believe to be a rhino hilt. Any suggestions on what course of action I should take?

[David]

Shahrial, thank you for providing different perspective from the Singapore keris community.
I nice and unusual hilt you have there. I certainly don't think you would want to destroy it for the sake of the blade.
I presume you have already tried applying heat to the blade as has been described in this thread? I know sometimes it takes much persistence an repetition.

[kai]

Hello Shahrial,

Currently I do have a piece which I have difficulty removing. A Sumatran keris, with what I believe to be a rhino hilt. Any suggestions on what course of action I should take?

Yes, most definitely: Please send it over to me....

How many times (and how long) have you tried the heating cycle?

Regards,
Kai