Nice

Tim Simmons · 22nd August 2010, 11:09 AM

Ened on ebay. Sadly I had no money. I wonder if this might be a prestige piece?? as it might be very difficult to maintain the striking edge orientation when swinging it about in earnest? 76cm over total, stone 30x12cm, wish it was mine.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...:B:WNA:GB:1123

Tim Simmons · 22nd August 2010, 07:58 PM

The end of this example is very similar. Beatrice Blackwood does mention during her stay with the Kukukuku, the lack of decoration on all Kukukuku artifacts. Any shape based on a disc, that is swung when the opportunity appears is going to hit the target without any extra thought needed. The small amout of decoration and stone shape does seem to indicate a show piece.

http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms...s/1938.36.411/

Ron Anderson · 23rd August 2010, 03:32 AM

Hi Tim

I'm a new member.

I have one of these, but without the decoration. And of course, spherical, not oval-headed.

I agree it is unlikely that anyone would have gone to this length on an ordinary weapon. It must be a show piece.

I'm not sure this would have made an entirely balanced club, in practical terms. The hafts of these are not particularly sturdy and the stone head on this one seems overly large.

If I'm not mistaken these stone heads are not cut into the round shape. Appropriate stones have to be found, which can't be easy, especially as they had to be flat too.

Ron Anderson · 23rd August 2010, 07:58 AM

I'm being moderated so it takes a while for my posts to appear.

I confess I have no idea whether the stones are quarried and cut into those shapes or not. This seems more likely.

However, I have read otherwise. As my piece is in storage I haven't looked at it recently to determine one way or another. However, I will say it does seem too perfectly spherical for it to be entirely uncut.

Here's the item.

http://militaryantiques.files.wordpr...3/dsc00751.jpg

Tim Simmons · 23rd August 2010, 08:11 PM

Ron thanks for your reply. I find stone so fasinating and with the right mind a live material.

Here are some extracts from "The Kukukuku of the Upper Watut, Beatrice Blackwood, Pitt Rivers museum" on types and the making of round head clubs. When she talks about oval club heads she is mentioning oval by basically one unit of measurment, which I think would not greatly affect the balance of a fighting club. The link provides pictures of round club head making-

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=guinea

I am very lucky to have one of these clubs which I show along with an Australian hammer stone. I aquired these with the help of fellow members { by good fortune I had a few swap items they were interseted in} they know who they are, I am very grateful.

The Australian hammer stone 17cm long, clearly shows pecking and grinding. One side ground more smooth. This apparant roughness is an Austratin feature in stone tools. I myself do not see it as rough but just a sophisticated artistic play with surface texture. Clearly they could have ground smooth or even to a polish. Anyway extreme as it may be it does show what you are looking at and I suggest that the Kukukuku disc club heads are pecked and ground, only ground to a more smooth surface.

Lastly I ask you all to indulge me by allowing me to show a piece of my limestone handicraft, a chalice based on the ball of human thigh bones diametre much the same as the stone disc.

P.S. Ms Blackwood would have been in her mid twenties when she made these studies. She suffered harsh conditions and health problems so we have observations only. Also she was under some official governace so she was not living with the seldom or wild uncontacted Kukukuku.

Ron Anderson · 25th August 2010, 04:16 AM

Hi Tim

Thanks for the information here. I will go over it in depth when I have a little time.

I think you're right regading the way these items and knapped.

I think there's an enormous amount of labour and artistry that goes into making these particular axe heads. From boring the hole to finding appropriate rocks to knapping and smoothing them into that shape.

I have a couple of aboriginal handaxes which I think you will find interesting if you love stone implements. And they illustrate your point very well.

I'll post them in the next couple of days.

katana · 25th August 2010, 10:53 AM

Hi Ron,
welcome to the forum, I've taken the liberty of posting the picture you linked too...

Regards David

Ron Anderson · 31st August 2010, 04:00 AM

Hi Tim

As promised, here are some shots of Australian axes. The first three you'll see have been chipped and knapped very roughly, except at the bottom where they are very smooth.

Aboriginal people were quite smart in that way. Why waste time and effort smoothing the entire axe when you only need to do it for the portion that forms the blade.

Practical people these. They had better things to do.

The last picture is of a complete axe, very nicely crafted, and smooth all over. A little unusual for an aboriginal axe. More common in Papua New Guinea.

Ron Anderson · 31st August 2010, 04:11 AM

Tim

Some great grinding stones here. You can actually see the grinding pattern permanently etched onto the stones.

I've also included a shot of my millstone. This is from Queensland, I think.

These were collected in the 1950s.

Tim Simmons · 31st August 2010, 05:31 PM

How big is the millstone? That is a nice little group of objects.

Ron Anderson · 31st August 2010, 11:20 PM

Hi Tim

The millstone is pretty substantial - about 44cm long and 27cm wide.

It has two grooves. Some have only one.

This is a nice collection, yes, fairly recently acquired.

I'm not Australian. I'm an immigrant with a New Zealand and South African background. So I look at this stuff with all the fascination of a true outsider.

I'm quickly discovering this ancient culture and it is extremely interesting.

Regards
Ron

22nd August 2010, 11:09 AM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,783	Nice Ened on ebay. Sadly I had no money. I wonder if this might be a prestige piece?? as it might be very difficult to maintain the striking edge orientation when swinging it about in earnest? 76cm over total, stone 30x12cm, wish it was mine. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...:B:WNA:GB:1123 Attached Images

23rd August 2010, 08:11 PM	#5
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,783	Stone, my mind has turned to stone. Ron thanks for your reply. I find stone so fasinating and with the right mind a live material. Here are some extracts from "The Kukukuku of the Upper Watut, Beatrice Blackwood, Pitt Rivers museum" on types and the making of round head clubs. When she talks about oval club heads she is mentioning oval by basically one unit of measurment, which I think would not greatly affect the balance of a fighting club. The link provides pictures of round club head making- http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=guinea I am very lucky to have one of these clubs which I show along with an Australian hammer stone. I aquired these with the help of fellow members { by good fortune I had a few swap items they were interseted in} they know who they are, I am very grateful. The Australian hammer stone 17cm long, clearly shows pecking and grinding. One side ground more smooth. This apparant roughness is an Austratin feature in stone tools. I myself do not see it as rough but just a sophisticated artistic play with surface texture. Clearly they could have ground smooth or even to a polish. Anyway extreme as it may be it does show what you are looking at and I suggest that the Kukukuku disc club heads are pecked and ground, only ground to a more smooth surface. Lastly I ask you all to indulge me by allowing me to show a piece of my limestone handicraft, a chalice based on the ball of human thigh bones diametre much the same as the stone disc. P.S. Ms Blackwood would have been in her mid twenties when she made these studies. She suffered harsh conditions and health problems so we have observations only. Also she was under some official governace so she was not living with the seldom or wild uncontacted Kukukuku. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 23rd August 2010 at 09:02 PM.

25th August 2010, 10:53 AM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Hi Ron, welcome to the forum, I've taken the liberty of posting the picture you linked too... Regards David Attached Images

31st August 2010, 04:00 AM	#8
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Tim As promised, here are some shots of Australian axes. The first three you'll see have been chipped and knapped very roughly, except at the bottom where they are very smooth. Aboriginal people were quite smart in that way. Why waste time and effort smoothing the entire axe when you only need to do it for the portion that forms the blade. Practical people these. They had better things to do. The last picture is of a complete axe, very nicely crafted, and smooth all over. A little unusual for an aboriginal axe. More common in Papua New Guinea. Attached Images

31st August 2010, 04:11 AM	#9
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Tim Some great grinding stones here. You can actually see the grinding pattern permanently etched onto the stones. I've also included a shot of my millstone. This is from Queensland, I think. These were collected in the 1950s. Attached Images

22nd August 2010, 07:58 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,783	The end of this example is very similar. Beatrice Blackwood does mention during her stay with the Kukukuku, the lack of decoration on all Kukukuku artifacts. Any shape based on a disc, that is swung when the opportunity appears is going to hit the target without any extra thought needed. The small amout of decoration and stone shape does seem to indicate a show piece. http://webprojects.prm.ox.ac.uk/arms...s/1938.36.411/

23rd August 2010, 03:32 AM	#3
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Tim I'm a new member. I have one of these, but without the decoration. And of course, spherical, not oval-headed. I agree it is unlikely that anyone would have gone to this length on an ordinary weapon. It must be a show piece. I'm not sure this would have made an entirely balanced club, in practical terms. The hafts of these are not particularly sturdy and the stone head on this one seems overly large. If I'm not mistaken these stone heads are not cut into the round shape. Appropriate stones have to be found, which can't be easy, especially as they had to be flat too.

23rd August 2010, 07:58 AM	#4
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	I'm being moderated so it takes a while for my posts to appear. I confess I have no idea whether the stones are quarried and cut into those shapes or not. This seems more likely. However, I have read otherwise. As my piece is in storage I haven't looked at it recently to determine one way or another. However, I will say it does seem too perfectly spherical for it to be entirely uncut. Here's the item. http://militaryantiques.files.wordpr...3/dsc00751.jpg

25th August 2010, 04:16 AM	#6
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Tim Thanks for the information here. I will go over it in depth when I have a little time. I think you're right regading the way these items and knapped. I think there's an enormous amount of labour and artistry that goes into making these particular axe heads. From boring the hole to finding appropriate rocks to knapping and smoothing them into that shape. I have a couple of aboriginal handaxes which I think you will find interesting if you love stone implements. And they illustrate your point very well. I'll post them in the next couple of days.

31st August 2010, 05:31 PM	#10
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,783	How big is the millstone? That is a nice little group of objects.

31st August 2010, 11:20 PM	#11
Ron Anderson Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 228	Hi Tim The millstone is pretty substantial - about 44cm long and 27cm wide. It has two grooves. Some have only one. This is a nice collection, yes, fairly recently acquired. I'm not Australian. I'm an immigrant with a New Zealand and South African background. So I look at this stuff with all the fascination of a true outsider. I'm quickly discovering this ancient culture and it is extremely interesting. Regards Ron