Lance head ?? Indo Persian? Seller stated African

katana · 29th August 2010, 12:16 AM

Hi Rick

,
I will try and get clearer close-ups and post them.

Using a loupe I have been checking the surface to clues for the type of construction ....and discovered, what I think, is small amounts of silver koftgari designs. Near impossible to photograph clearly but evidence of stripes, a chevron and circles with small rays (sun ?).

Now I have a problem, take the risk of removing the very old patina to reveal the remaining koftgari (good idea if a lot of it remains)....or leave as is ???

Regards David

Rick · 29th August 2010, 12:36 AM

By all means ....

Leave as is !

From your pictures it just looks so uniform; no waves, lumps etc.

katana · 29th August 2010, 02:07 PM

Hi Rick,
when you mentioned 'cast' ....I originally assumed you meant 'crucible steel. Weapons and tools were made from cast and were often marked 'warranted cast steel' as a sign of the quality of metal.

Now, I understand ...what you meant by cast was mould (mold

) 'formed' .

All I can say is the surface is covered in 'micro pitting' caused by corrosion and not bubbles form during casting. The 'fullering' seems forged although under high magnification I can see some fine scratches, in line with the fullers...possibly grinding/file marks to 'tidy them up'.

The socket is only hollow for 2/3 of its length the remaining third nearest the head is solid. Which again suggests to me that this design is to sustain 'hard impact'. ie the shaft end fitted into the socket would be flat (spreading the impact force) usually it would be pointed. The best analogy would be stiletto heels on a wooden floor compared to 'flat' shoes.....not that I've worn 'stiletto's recently

The koftgari also strongly suggests that this was not a 'throw away' item, so throwing spear is very unlikely......surely it has to be a lance head ???

I must admit I am 'itching' to find out what is hidden below the black stabilised rust layer (is there a name for this

) but do not want to remove 'the age' from the piece. What if I carefully clean one of the facets of the blade ??? leaving the other 3 'natural' . If there is a lot of the koftgari surviving below this layer, it would give more information ....but would it de-value the piece ???

All opinions gratefully received

Regards David

Tim Simmons · 29th August 2010, 07:05 PM

David, is there any way you can show the marks on this piece. A picture, rubbing or just copy then to a piece of paper. I am most interested to see. I have been doing some digging. The red paint is also interesting.

katana · 30th August 2010, 11:46 AM

Hi Tim,
thanks for your interest. Heres a drawn picture

Kind Regards David

Tim Simmons · 30th August 2010, 01:29 PM

Interesting. Could it be just engraving? Are they like Indian symbols? The placing and minimalism does not remind me of Idian work. I could see some similarity to Adinkra symbols? It might even be a piece of iron in a ritual context? The red paint might have some relavance?

katana · 30th August 2010, 09:34 PM

Hi Tim,
the dark rust stablised patination covers around 98% of the surface, I decided to use a nylon type 'washing up' scourer to clean the surrounding area..... using a lot of water and gentle pressure.

This has nearly entirely removed the design

, the design was a dull/shiny silver colour. I am convinced that this was the remains of koftgari which due to corrosion had 'lifted' from the steel and was held in 'suspension' in the stablised patina. I had sucessfully removed some of this layer....but in doing so had also removed much of the 'noticeable' koftgari

The 'sun' sign was only around 3mm in size and was very precise , as were the surviving lines.

Still, believing that it was indeed koftgari and the taking into account that this piece might be circa 18th C. I have concluded that the steel may be of quality ....perhaps even wootz (although I'm not holding my breath). I have decided to clean the 'head' and try an etch.

I am leaving the socket, as is, at the moment....until I can find out the relevance of the red ring.

All the best,

Kind Regards David

PS. I have found the 'remains' of another identical 'sun' sign next to the edge, just below one of the fullers

29th August 2010, 02:07 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Rick, when you mentioned 'cast' ....I originally assumed you meant 'crucible steel. Weapons and tools were made from cast and were often marked 'warranted cast steel' as a sign of the quality of metal. Now, I understand ...what you meant by cast was mould (mold ) 'formed' . All I can say is the surface is covered in 'micro pitting' caused by corrosion and not bubbles form during casting. The 'fullering' seems forged although under high magnification I can see some fine scratches, in line with the fullers...possibly grinding/file marks to 'tidy them up'. The socket is only hollow for 2/3 of its length the remaining third nearest the head is solid. Which again suggests to me that this design is to sustain 'hard impact'. ie the shaft end fitted into the socket would be flat (spreading the impact force) usually it would be pointed. The best analogy would be stiletto heels on a wooden floor compared to 'flat' shoes.....not that I've worn 'stiletto's recently The koftgari also strongly suggests that this was not a 'throw away' item, so throwing spear is very unlikely......surely it has to be a lance head ??? I must admit I am 'itching' to find out what is hidden below the black stabilised rust layer (is there a name for this ) but do not want to remove 'the age' from the piece. What if I carefully clean one of the facets of the blade ??? leaving the other 3 'natural' . If there is a lot of the koftgari surviving below this layer, it would give more information ....but would it de-value the piece ??? All opinions gratefully received Regards David Last edited by katana; 29th August 2010 at 08:52 PM. Reason: spelling

30th August 2010, 11:46 AM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Tim, thanks for your interest. Heres a drawn picture Kind Regards David Attached Images

30th August 2010, 01:29 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	Interesting. Could it be just engraving? Are they like Indian symbols? The placing and minimalism does not remind me of Idian work. I could see some similarity to Adinkra symbols? It might even be a piece of iron in a ritual context? The red paint might have some relavance? Last edited by Tim Simmons; 30th August 2010 at 06:10 PM.

30th August 2010, 09:34 PM	#7
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Tim, the dark rust stablised patination covers around 98% of the surface, I decided to use a nylon type 'washing up' scourer to clean the surrounding area..... using a lot of water and gentle pressure. This has nearly entirely removed the design , the design was a dull/shiny silver colour. I am convinced that this was the remains of koftgari which due to corrosion had 'lifted' from the steel and was held in 'suspension' in the stablised patina. I had sucessfully removed some of this layer....but in doing so had also removed much of the 'noticeable' koftgari The 'sun' sign was only around 3mm in size and was very precise , as were the surviving lines. Still, believing that it was indeed koftgari and the taking into account that this piece might be circa 18th C. I have concluded that the steel may be of quality ....perhaps even wootz (although I'm not holding my breath). I have decided to clean the 'head' and try an etch. I am leaving the socket, as is, at the moment....until I can find out the relevance of the red ring. All the best, Kind Regards David PS. I have found the 'remains' of another identical 'sun' sign next to the edge, just below one of the fullers Last edited by katana; 30th August 2010 at 10:36 PM.

29th August 2010, 12:16 AM	#1
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Hi Rick , I will try and get clearer close-ups and post them. Using a loupe I have been checking the surface to clues for the type of construction ....and discovered, what I think, is small amounts of silver koftgari designs. Near impossible to photograph clearly but evidence of stripes, a chevron and circles with small rays (sun ?). Now I have a problem, take the risk of removing the very old patina to reveal the remaining koftgari (good idea if a lot of it remains)....or leave as is ??? Regards David

29th August 2010, 12:36 AM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,336	By all means .... Leave as is ! From your pictures it just looks so uniform; no waves, lumps etc.

29th August 2010, 07:05 PM	#4
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,843	David, is there any way you can show the marks on this piece. A picture, rubbing or just copy then to a piece of paper. I am most interested to see. I have been doing some digging. The red paint is also interesting.