19th century gothic dagger?

[David]

Ron, you were probably having problems because these images were way too large to upload to our site. The ppi was at 72, but the file dimensions were like 24x35 inches. I resized them and gave them a tighter crop.
So why do you think this is 19th century?

[Battara]

Yeah European alright. Yes possibly French. May need to go to the European section.

[fernando]

Hi Ron,
Try and upload direct pictures and not web links.
We will move this thread to the European Armoury section, if you don't mind.

[Ron Anderson]

Hello everyone

Thanks for your comments. I'm in Australia so there is a time lag between us, which is why I'm only responding now.

David, thanks for fixing those pictures. I have a new camera and will need to work out how to created smaller files.

I think it's 19th century, partly because a knowledgeable friend pointed me in that direction. There is a definite age to the piece. It looks like a fantasy knife, but in fact is not your garden variety fantasy knife at all.

The odd thing is, I've seen this type of knife twice within the last year. The first time it was one of a large number of very high quality edged weapons on auction. I dismissed it as a fantasy knife (as did the auction house 'experts') but my friend identified it as something kind of special.

The very same knife appeared at an antique market where the dealer was selling it for next to nothing, believing it to be a modern fantasy knife. Foolishly I didn't buy it immediately and when I returned to buy it after drawing money it had been sold.

This particular knife I found at an arms fair. It was sold to me by a custom knife maker who found it in a junk shop. It is almost identical to the first knife I'd seen but in better condition.

The fact that I've seen two here in Sydney within the last year led me to believe it might be not all that uncommon. However, I suspect it is actually very uncommon and the fact that I've encountered it twice in a short time frame is just a bizarre coincidence.

I think it's French because it just has that look. I think there've been similar figural pieces displayed in past threads here.

The blade looks distinctly 19th century to me. I've seen similar blades on other ornate 19th century daggers. But there are no markings at all.

Anyway, it is really an interesting piece. I'm delighted to have found it.

I haven't ruled out the possibility that it belonged to some form of fraternal or secret society.

Would be very keen to here from anybody else who might have some insight into it.

Regards
Ron

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Battara

Yeah European alright. Yes possibly French.

good shoot might be a track ...
see under the label; "Dague romantique Viollet le Duc"

à +

Dom

[M ELEY]

Hmmm...well, I wouldn't say fantasy knife, but perhaps something more utilitarian, like a letter opener? I don't mean this insultingly, as there are collectors of such. The figure could be a griffon, but with that face, I was thinking 'gargoyle', which is also a popular French decoration. I wouldn't think it was too old,perhaps early 20th?? A well-decorated piece. My two cents...

[Ron Anderson]

Hi Mark

You could be right.

I've seen other figural daggers recently that are rather like letter openers, so I do know where you're coming from. Certainly, this would serve that purpose. But this is a proper dagger with a very nice blade. The knives I've seen which were like letter openers were smaller.

This is a full sized piece. It's 26cm long, with a blade of about 15.5cm.

Seems a bit excessive for a letter opener. However, I know some people who opener their champagne bottles with Scottish broadswords!

The custom knife maker I bought it from was pretty impressed with its manufacture as a knife. And I have to say, I do agree. It's a well made knife.

You may be right. It could be early 20th century. Hard to say. Later 19th century is also a possibility.

I don't think it's much later than that.

Thanks for your comments.

[Atlantia]

Hi Ron.

I have to say that my first thoughts are that it is very pretty, but last 40 years.
However, first impressions can indeed be way off the mark, and as you say, sometiimes it is the items dismissed by the 'experts' that turn out to be the 'sleeper' gems.
I have a couple of questions that may help discern origins a bit more.
How is the handle attached to the blade?
Is the blade stainless steel, I can't see any marks on it from oxidisation?
Is there any liner in the scabbard?

[Ron Anderson]

Hi

I don't think it's stainless steel. There is some light oxidation on the blade, some fluffy black stuff that hasn't shown up in the photo. I believe the scabbard has a wood lining, but can't really tell. However, I do know the other example I spoke about had a wood lining. I believe the copper is wrapped around this wood lining.

I think the handle is attached the same ways most old blades are attached. The tang goes right through the hilt. There seems to be a mark visible at the top of the knife - you can see the mark where the tang comes through on the gargoyle's head. This is the same sort of mark you'd see in a sword dating from the 19th century – for instance, the same sort of mark you'd see on a 19th British naval officer's sword (the lion head). However, it is subtle and hard to detect, but it's definitely there.

The handle appears to haven been cast in 2 pieces – a line runs through the profile of the hilt. However, is is not quite in the centre.

Regards
Ron