1796 L.C. Officers Sword.

Ian Knight · 23rd August 2010, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard

Interesting observation Ian, and something I had never really thought about. However, I have a few swords with definite Waterloo or other battle provenance and these would certainly bear out what you are saying, i.e. a few but quite deep nicks.

Richard

Top : Sword of Lt Chatterton, 12LD, carried at Vittoria, Salamanca, Quatre Bras and Waterloo
Bottom: 16th LD officer's sword, almost certainly at Waterloo

I really love those sabres Richard.
I have always believed from reading about first hand accounts from the period that cavalry engagements would be short but very violent affairs. In the mayhem of a cavalry engagement one or two blows would have been the maximum possible. Perhaps a parry and one or two cuts at an opponent.
One only has to read the various Scots Greys accounts from the Battle of Waterloo to have a good understanding of a cavalry action.
When a trooper was attemping to kill an opponent he would use his sabre with all of his force. Trooper's would often stand in their stirrups to give their blow more force. If the opponent were lucky enough to parry the blow this would leave a very deep notch in the blade as in the lower of Richards two sabres. Many blows would also hit the opponents blade at an angle showing the impact and removing a slither of metal. I own a French 1810 dated Cuirassier's sabre with it's original scabbard and hatchet pointed blade. This sword blade shows such an impact near the hilt. See photos below.
In action notches to the blade would vary from the point of the blade up to and including the hilt.
I am convinced that much of the damage that I see to swords at auction is caused not by military engagements but merely from abuse by more recent owners enacting scenes from their favourite movies or just play acting. These knicks are very distintive: Very many shallow cuts and nicks on the lower half of the blade away from where the hand would be grasping the sword.
Obviously, sword blades can also show deep cuts from being used in action and the more shallow cuts from sword abuse.

Ian

Jim McDougall · 23rd August 2010, 08:43 PM

Great observations Ian!! and I think that would be a great topic for a thread on 'sword forensics'.....examination and assessment of combat damage vs. unrelated inflictions of the blades of edged weapons.

It is true that real sword combat, in addition to perhaps virtually all forms of combat, whether embellished in literature, narrative or movies, is far from these depictions. Actually even duels etc. were typically brief actions with a series of rapid and quickly ended moves, interspersed with long positioning, guaging and deliberate movements....far from the swashbuckling, constant clanging of blade against blade. In actual use, energy is quickly spent, though in actual combat, fear, anger and adrenalin propel the combatants far beyond normal limitations. It is really impossible to guage the intensity of the blows struck, or random results of such violent interaction, and the kind of glancing damage seen on Ians posted French blade is a great example.

It is hard to imagine protocol, regulation or procedural adherence in the maelstrom of chaos that must have exploded in these horrific events, but I recall one instance that I believe was recounted from the Charge of the Light Brigade. A wounded British cavalry trooper engaging a Russian cavalryman in the melee following contact in the charge, was later complaining about the engagement claiming that he had used a cut so and so in attack, expecting a responding cut in accordance to protocol, but complained the fool responded with the inappropriate cut in accord, and knocked him off his horse.
Clearly the trooper was referring to the "Rules and Regulations for the Sword Exercise of Cavalry" (1796) written by LeMarchant and authorized by George III............it seems it must have been uttered humorously, as obviously the Russians could not have been expected to follow such rules. Just the same, it is interesting to see how sanely and rationally prescribed rules cannot possibly be part of the relative and incidental insanity experienced in the horrors of this kind of combat, regardless of training and expectation.

It is fascinating to see the history that unfolds as we examine a cavalry sabre tossed unceremoniously into a garage, and left for years. It is a shame that the public at large typically does not realize that historic items are not just in museums or in books, but in staggering numbers exist in these very circumstances. It is heartening to see another of these old warriors saved from obscurity.....thank you Norman!!!!! and thanks for the fantastic discussion here guys!!!

All the best,
Jim

Richard · 24th August 2010, 08:13 AM

When I was collecting French 1st Empire swords a few years ago, one of the things I always used to look for was denting and damage at the bottom of the scabbard as in the Imperial Guard Chasseur a Cheval scabbard below. All French cavalry swords with brass scabbards sustained this sort of damage where the bottom of the scabbard clashed with the rider's spurs in general or in a melee. It is something that always delineates a genuine example from a forgery.

Richard · 24th August 2010, 08:17 AM

On the other hand, here is the scabbard from Gen Francis Hugonin's (4th Dragoons) sword (before restoration) showing a very nice dent which has bent it at rakish angle of about 15 deg. Was this caused by the blow of an enemy sabre? Maybe it deflected a musket ball? No, the answer is that it was stored in an attic for about 25 years and some fool stepped on it!

Jim McDougall · 25th August 2010, 01:05 AM

Thanks Richard!! Those are excellent pointers in looking at these swords, and those are the kind of tips that really help in assessing these weapons. Thank you for sharing them, especially about the dings at the end of the scabbard, one never thinks of the damage to the scabbard, always focused on the sword. This is true weapons forensics, looking for clues beyond what is normally the center of attention.

All the best,
Jim

24th August 2010, 08:13 AM	#3
Richard Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Aquae Sulis, UK Posts: 46	When I was collecting French 1st Empire swords a few years ago, one of the things I always used to look for was denting and damage at the bottom of the scabbard as in the Imperial Guard Chasseur a Cheval scabbard below. All French cavalry swords with brass scabbards sustained this sort of damage where the bottom of the scabbard clashed with the rider's spurs in general or in a melee. It is something that always delineates a genuine example from a forgery. Attached Images

24th August 2010, 08:17 AM	#4
Richard Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Aquae Sulis, UK Posts: 46	On the other hand, here is the scabbard from Gen Francis Hugonin's (4th Dragoons) sword (before restoration) showing a very nice dent which has bent it at rakish angle of about 15 deg. Was this caused by the blow of an enemy sabre? Maybe it deflected a musket ball? No, the answer is that it was stored in an attic for about 25 years and some fool stepped on it! Attached Images

23rd August 2010, 08:43 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Great observations Ian!! and I think that would be a great topic for a thread on 'sword forensics'.....examination and assessment of combat damage vs. unrelated inflictions of the blades of edged weapons. It is true that real sword combat, in addition to perhaps virtually all forms of combat, whether embellished in literature, narrative or movies, is far from these depictions. Actually even duels etc. were typically brief actions with a series of rapid and quickly ended moves, interspersed with long positioning, guaging and deliberate movements....far from the swashbuckling, constant clanging of blade against blade. In actual use, energy is quickly spent, though in actual combat, fear, anger and adrenalin propel the combatants far beyond normal limitations. It is really impossible to guage the intensity of the blows struck, or random results of such violent interaction, and the kind of glancing damage seen on Ians posted French blade is a great example. It is hard to imagine protocol, regulation or procedural adherence in the maelstrom of chaos that must have exploded in these horrific events, but I recall one instance that I believe was recounted from the Charge of the Light Brigade. A wounded British cavalry trooper engaging a Russian cavalryman in the melee following contact in the charge, was later complaining about the engagement claiming that he had used a cut so and so in attack, expecting a responding cut in accordance to protocol, but complained the fool responded with the inappropriate cut in accord, and knocked him off his horse. Clearly the trooper was referring to the "Rules and Regulations for the Sword Exercise of Cavalry" (1796) written by LeMarchant and authorized by George III............it seems it must have been uttered humorously, as obviously the Russians could not have been expected to follow such rules. Just the same, it is interesting to see how sanely and rationally prescribed rules cannot possibly be part of the relative and incidental insanity experienced in the horrors of this kind of combat, regardless of training and expectation. It is fascinating to see the history that unfolds as we examine a cavalry sabre tossed unceremoniously into a garage, and left for years. It is a shame that the public at large typically does not realize that historic items are not just in museums or in books, but in staggering numbers exist in these very circumstances. It is heartening to see another of these old warriors saved from obscurity.....thank you Norman!!!!! and thanks for the fantastic discussion here guys!!! All the best, Jim

25th August 2010, 01:05 AM	#5
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,189	Thanks Richard!! Those are excellent pointers in looking at these swords, and those are the kind of tips that really help in assessing these weapons. Thank you for sharing them, especially about the dings at the end of the scabbard, one never thinks of the damage to the scabbard, always focused on the sword. This is true weapons forensics, looking for clues beyond what is normally the center of attention. All the best, Jim