Interesting Phurba

Tim Simmons · 13th August 2010, 06:45 PM

I found this picture of one of the same blade form. 16cm long the modelling is pretty tight. From "Oriental Art of India, Nepal, Tibet, Micheal J Ridley 1970.

Jim McDougall · 13th August 2010, 07:54 PM

Nice work Tim!!!!
It looks like Andy's example has the vajra and phur pa incorporated into one, as these are apparantly used in tandem in ritual. I think I will join with Vandoo and Battara in noting that this one has quality that may well be commensurate with one for actual ritual use rather than the commercial stuff out there.

David · 13th August 2010, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

Nice work Tim!!!!
It looks like Andy's example has the vajra and phur pa incorporated into one, as these are apparantly used in tandem in ritual. I think I will join with Vandoo and Battara in noting that this one has quality that may well be commensurate with one for actual ritual use rather than the commercial stuff out there.

Hey Jim, i think that Barry and José were referring to the one if the museum, not Andy's. I'm pretty sure that Andy's is only a commercial repro. There are so many variations on commercially produced phurbas, but the vast majority of what is available out there has had absolutely no ritual use by Buddhist monks. Many of the repros are beautifully crafted, some with valuable metals and gems like the museum example, quality is not necessarily a guide to authenticity. Keep in mind that these items would be passed down and kept within the practice. They are considered VERY powerful ritual tools. So the availability of real authentic phurpas that have seen real ritual use is next to nil.
Phurpas have traditionally been made out of wood as well as metal. When metal the blades are generally iron or in special cases, meterorite, which it was felt was necessary to employ against certain demons that were immune to earthly materials.
Here are some images of some "real" and some possibly "real" phurpas. The one with the hammer is supposedly 17th century.

Jim McDougall · 14th August 2010, 12:37 AM

David, thank you so much for the gently worded and well explained correction

I had misunderstood which one they were referring to. I regret for Andy that that appears to be the case, but if nothing else, this is definitely an intriguing item.
I was fascinated by these long before I saw the one in "The Shadow" back in the 90s, and really hoped to find one myself back in those days.

Thanks again David, and Andy, still a nice item, even if not officially a ritual piece.

All the best,
Jim

Battara · 14th August 2010, 04:53 AM

Notice that in David's posting the quality of the metal work - the chasing and casting not found in the original piece in question.

Also the phurba was to pin the demon to the ground and thus be worked with and dispatched. Originally in the Bon religion, it along with Bon got incorporated into Tibetan Buddhist rituals.

laEspadaAncha · 14th August 2010, 06:21 AM

It is worth noting that (authentic) phurbas can still be found at fair prices in antique stores in India - especially in Janpath in Delhi, where a lot of items from Tibet, Nepal, and elsewhere may be found... IMO the plethora of reproductions has driven down interest and demand, and as a result legitimate antique copies are quite affordable (haggling in Hindi doesn't hurt either

). I'll post a pic of one or two of ours tomorrow...

One last thing I would add: while fine detail may help determine the authenticity of a ritual object, I do not believe the lack of detail is necessarily a sufficient condition to determine a piece is not authentic. I have seen plenty of pooja room statues and castings that are not of the finest quality, as people buy what they can afford.

It is also worth noting that time can and often will take its toll on detail on many older pieces that are not as well cared for as they could be...

David · 14th August 2010, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by laEspadaAncha

It is worth noting that (authentic) phurbas can still be found at fair prices in antique stores in India - especially in Janpath in Delhi, where a lot of items from Tibet, Nepal, and elsewhere may be found... IMO the plethora of reproductions has driven down interest and demand, and as a result legitimate antique copies are quite affordable (haggling in Hindi doesn't hurt either

). I'll post a pic of one or two of ours tomorrow...

One last thing I would add: while fine detail may help determine the authenticity of a ritual object, I do not believe the lack of detail is necessarily a sufficient condition to determine a piece is not authentic. I have seen plenty of pooja room statues and castings that are not of the finest quality, as people buy what they can afford.

It is also worth noting that time can and often will take its toll on detail on many older pieces that are not as well cared for as they could be...

I agree. I think that you can see in the examples i posted that fine detail is not what many of them are about, though a particular intent and presence is obvious.

13th August 2010, 06:45 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,925	spelling I found this picture of one of the same blade form. 16cm long the modelling is pretty tight. From "Oriental Art of India, Nepal, Tibet, Micheal J Ridley 1970. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 13th August 2010 at 07:16 PM.

13th August 2010, 07:54 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	Nice work Tim!!!! It looks like Andy's example has the vajra and phur pa incorporated into one, as these are apparantly used in tandem in ritual. I think I will join with Vandoo and Battara in noting that this one has quality that may well be commensurate with one for actual ritual use rather than the commercial stuff out there.

14th August 2010, 12:37 AM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,670	David, thank you so much for the gently worded and well explained correction I had misunderstood which one they were referring to. I regret for Andy that that appears to be the case, but if nothing else, this is definitely an intriguing item. I was fascinated by these long before I saw the one in "The Shadow" back in the 90s, and really hoped to find one myself back in those days. Thanks again David, and Andy, still a nice item, even if not officially a ritual piece. All the best, Jim

14th August 2010, 04:53 AM	#5
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,345	Notice that in David's posting the quality of the metal work - the chasing and casting not found in the original piece in question. Also the phurba was to pin the demon to the ground and thus be worked with and dispatched. Originally in the Bon religion, it along with Bon got incorporated into Tibetan Buddhist rituals.

14th August 2010, 06:21 AM	#6
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	It is worth noting that (authentic) phurbas can still be found at fair prices in antique stores in India - especially in Janpath in Delhi, where a lot of items from Tibet, Nepal, and elsewhere may be found... IMO the plethora of reproductions has driven down interest and demand, and as a result legitimate antique copies are quite affordable (haggling in Hindi doesn't hurt either ). I'll post a pic of one or two of ours tomorrow... One last thing I would add: while fine detail may help determine the authenticity of a ritual object, I do not believe the lack of detail is necessarily a sufficient condition to determine a piece is not authentic. I have seen plenty of pooja room statues and castings that are not of the finest quality, as people buy what they can afford. It is also worth noting that time can and often will take its toll on detail on many older pieces that are not as well cared for as they could be...