good day

Tim Simmons · 4th August 2010, 08:01 PM

I was in Oxford today visiting the Pitt Rivers museum { lots of pics to show} and came across this piece. In amonst several of the usual Asian knives and daggers, choora and the like. Labeled eastern dagger? Now with the scabbard, I think it is very clearly a prestige African item. I am certain of a West African origin perhaps even as north as Guinea. The scabbard fits snuggly under the guard. It was not got for pennies but kinda groovy?

Total length in scabbard 44cm, naked 43cm, blade 31cm.

Tim Simmons · 7th August 2010, 02:34 PM

These are rich folks Vodun Ogun cutlasses. The one that started the thread has a bird head, this is Aje a deity. It is complicated as a outsider but as far as I can work out, Aje is or can used as female aspect to Ogun. Also a goddess of wealth. Aje appears to humans as a fowl. So all the bird idea posts were not that far of the mark except Peafowl are Indian.

PS most probably a Guinea fowl.

PS

The snake {like} engraving on the first example is also a female aspect and access to Ogun. So I suggest the first example might possibly? have belonged to a wealthy lady? There are restrictions on female acess to Ogun, the bird and snake allow female acess.

When seen together like this it becomes more clear, just one has the double guard scabbard top thing. The other has that bird thang going on.

Jim McDougall · 7th August 2010, 05:08 PM

Fantastic Tim!!! You really did it on this one, and nicely explained as well as supported by your observations through the entireity of this thread...it is clear that this weapon is what you have suggested all along. I really love it when threads have dropped away but are revived by new evidence, and then shared with detail we can all learn from.
Your visit to Pitt Rivers has become one we all got to go on thanks to your sharing all these great photos and observations, a personal guided tour

Thank you very much Tim!!!

Best regards,
Jim

David · 8th August 2010, 02:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

These are rich folks Vodun Ogun cutlasses. The one that started the thread has a bird head, this is Aje a deity. It is complicated as a outsider but as far as I can work out, Aje is or can used as female aspect to Ogun. Also a goddess of wealth. Aje appears to humans as a fowl. So all the bird idea posts were not that far of the mark except Peafowl are Indian.
PS most probably a Guinea fowl.
The snake {like} engraving on the first example is also a female aspect and access to Ogun. So I suggest the first example might possibly? have belonged to a wealthy lady? There are restrictions on female acess to Ogun, the bird and snake allow female acess.

I don't think it is likely that a blade like this, if dedicated to Ogun, belonged to any one particular wealthy person, male or female. It would more likely be a temple tool and it's "owner" would be Ogun himself, to be wielded by a priest or priestess who is possessed by Ogun. That it is nicer than some others probably speaks more to the wealth of the community associated with the temple from which it may have come.
I have a different understanding of Aje. Here is an interesting article on the subject. Note that the bird association remains.
http://www.assatashakur.org/forum/tr...y-persona.html

M ELEY · 8th August 2010, 08:26 AM

Fascinating thread and pretty awesome detective work by all. I was hoping for a more definitive answer on this one, particularly with its double guards. I have seen another sword with a double guard on an auction page many years back with such a construction, listed as a "Spanish pirate??" sword. (Yes, now you know why i remember it so well-

) It had a similar patterning to my mystery sword that ended up being West African, possibly Dahomey, and also looked distinctly 'pirate'. See the old thread 'Colonial hanger, Spanish dagger or...'

My point in bringing this up is, can anyone else provide a double guard/double disk guard item of W. African origin to confirm if this is a common construction detail of this region?

Tim Simmons · 8th August 2010, 09:28 AM

David thanks for the interest and the link. I do not want to drift too far from the knives post here but it is important to understand the motives for there creation. The link shows how Vodun is a living view of life and not bound by a scripture. I am not an expert but feel some of the ideas in the link may have taken form and reflect infuences of late 20th century feminism. I post an extract from {Africas OGUN Old World And New} which I am using as my guide for investigation. I might being adding 2+2 = 5 about a ladies object but you can see how.

It is certainly possible that the item with the scabbard was a temple object. I took it to be a personel object a badge office or devotion, by the definate signs of carriage/suspension and wear to the scabbard loop. Pictures for examination.

As to the idea of a tradition in form; well the Swiss chap has one the same

anymore out there?

PS the first piece of text should follow the second.

Tim Simmons · 8th August 2010, 11:49 AM

I see it as perhaps personel regalia used in scenes like this from many parts West Africa. Indeed a symbol of the wealth of the community. Belonging to the officiating priest would be rather cool. Sorry the picture is so large but not much point in showing it any smaller.

Tim Simmons · 29th August 2010, 07:15 PM

I do not know if this is right but seems to make more sense.

The bird element seen on these ceremonial cutlass is most probably nothing to do with the deity AJE and female life force. It is more likely to represent OBATALA who brings a chicken to earth, it's scratching in sand, scatters the sand and forms the world . OBATALA infulence on the cutlass would be to bring balance to the attributes of OGUN .

I read this which helps a lot. Shango, Obalata and Ogun are different but could be seen as rain water, freshwater and saltwater all the same.

4th August 2010, 08:01 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,876	I was in Oxford today visiting the Pitt Rivers museum { lots of pics to show} and came across this piece. In amonst several of the usual Asian knives and daggers, choora and the like. Labeled eastern dagger? Now with the scabbard, I think it is very clearly a prestige African item. I am certain of a West African origin perhaps even as north as Guinea. The scabbard fits snuggly under the guard. It was not got for pennies but kinda groovy? Total length in scabbard 44cm, naked 43cm, blade 31cm. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 4th August 2010 at 08:53 PM. Reason: SPELLING

7th August 2010, 02:34 PM	#2
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,876	These are rich folks Vodun Ogun cutlasses. The one that started the thread has a bird head, this is Aje a deity. It is complicated as a outsider but as far as I can work out, Aje is or can used as female aspect to Ogun. Also a goddess of wealth. Aje appears to humans as a fowl. So all the bird idea posts were not that far of the mark except Peafowl are Indian. PS most probably a Guinea fowl. PS The snake {like} engraving on the first example is also a female aspect and access to Ogun. So I suggest the first example might possibly? have belonged to a wealthy lady? There are restrictions on female acess to Ogun, the bird and snake allow female acess. When seen together like this it becomes more clear, just one has the double guard scabbard top thing. The other has that bird thang going on. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 7th August 2010 at 04:54 PM.

8th August 2010, 09:28 AM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,876	David thanks for the interest and the link. I do not want to drift too far from the knives post here but it is important to understand the motives for there creation. The link shows how Vodun is a living view of life and not bound by a scripture. I am not an expert but feel some of the ideas in the link may have taken form and reflect infuences of late 20th century feminism. I post an extract from {Africas OGUN Old World And New} which I am using as my guide for investigation. I might being adding 2+2 = 5 about a ladies object but you can see how. It is certainly possible that the item with the scabbard was a temple object. I took it to be a personel object a badge office or devotion, by the definate signs of carriage/suspension and wear to the scabbard loop. Pictures for examination. As to the idea of a tradition in form; well the Swiss chap has one the same anymore out there? PS the first piece of text should follow the second. Attached Images

8th August 2010, 11:49 AM	#7
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,876	A picture paints a thousand words I see it as perhaps personel regalia used in scenes like this from many parts West Africa. Indeed a symbol of the wealth of the community. Belonging to the officiating priest would be rather cool. Sorry the picture is so large but not much point in showing it any smaller. Attached Images

29th August 2010, 07:15 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,876	I do not know if this is right but seems to make more sense. The bird element seen on these ceremonial cutlass is most probably nothing to do with the deity AJE and female life force. It is more likely to represent OBATALA who brings a chicken to earth, it's scratching in sand, scatters the sand and forms the world . OBATALA infulence on the cutlass would be to bring balance to the attributes of OGUN . I read this which helps a lot. Shango, Obalata and Ogun are different but could be seen as rain water, freshwater and saltwater all the same. Last edited by Tim Simmons; 29th August 2010 at 07:34 PM. Reason: SPELLING

7th August 2010, 05:08 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,477	Fantastic Tim!!! You really did it on this one, and nicely explained as well as supported by your observations through the entireity of this thread...it is clear that this weapon is what you have suggested all along. I really love it when threads have dropped away but are revived by new evidence, and then shared with detail we can all learn from. Your visit to Pitt Rivers has become one we all got to go on thanks to your sharing all these great photos and observations, a personal guided tour Thank you very much Tim!!! Best regards, Jim

8th August 2010, 08:26 AM	#5
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,184	Fascinating thread and pretty awesome detective work by all. I was hoping for a more definitive answer on this one, particularly with its double guards. I have seen another sword with a double guard on an auction page many years back with such a construction, listed as a "Spanish pirate??" sword. (Yes, now you know why i remember it so well- ) It had a similar patterning to my mystery sword that ended up being West African, possibly Dahomey, and also looked distinctly 'pirate'. See the old thread 'Colonial hanger, Spanish dagger or...' My point in bringing this up is, can anyone else provide a double guard/double disk guard item of W. African origin to confirm if this is a common construction detail of this region?