Pesh Kabz or ?? Tks for help

[Lew]

It looks Afghan to me but I have a big problem with tip it is totally non functional and it even looks like it was pinned on? The steel looks acid etch to me also.

[Atlantia]

I like it a lot.
It almost looks to me like a european piece that has been altered to have the 'ring splitter' added, making it more like a similarly 'armed' persian kard.
I also agree with Lew that my first impression of the patterning was 'added'.
Also, is that a 'frog button' on the scabbard?

[Henk]

Although it is not my field at all, i like this one very much. Don't know how this kind of dagger is called but the tip is certainly for piercing armor.

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2942

Found this one on oriental arms. As far as I know they don't have problems with placing the link here.

Nice find.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Henk

... but the tip is certainly for piercing armor. ...

Nah. not the same thing

-

[Dom]

Good Day
thanks a lot to every body for the collaboration
from my side I may add some comments
presently, I'm in Aleppo (Syria) and yesterday I met a Syrian friend, blacksmith, specialist in restoration of islamic blades, Rimon from Damascus for those knows him
- the item is a "composit"
1) blade is oldest than the grip, may be XVII or XVIIIth
2) the scabbard, looks XIXth
3) the blade is without contest "JOAR" not "acid etch"
4) the "tip" may be have been added century ago, but at evidence, not recently

the general impression is a weapon for "action" not for "display" and definitively not a "tourist trap"

today, we are on way to Damascus, may be some discovert ??
and to leave some knifes to be refurbished
and then we will reach Cairo - Egypt, in 4 or 5 days
where any one should visit us, are welcome, I will be their guide inside the souks

à +

Dom

[Lew]

Originally Posted by Dom

Good Day
thanks a lot to every body for the collaboration
from my side I may add some comments
presently, I'm in Aleppo (Syria) and yesterday I met a Syrian friend, blacksmith, specialist in restoration of islamic blades, Rimon from Damascus for those knows him
- the item is a "composit"
1) blade is oldest than the grip, may be XVII or XVIIIth
2) the scabbard, looks XIXth
3) the blade is without contest "JOAR" not "acid etch"
4) the "tip" may be have been added century ago, but at evidence, not recently

the general impression is a weapon for "action" not for "display" and definitively not a "tourist trap"
today, we are on way to Damascus, may be some discovert ??
and to leave some knifes to be refurbished
and then we will reach Cairo - Egypt, in 4 or 5 days
where any one should visit us, are welcome, I will be their guide inside the souks

à +

Dom

Dom

What does JOAR mean? I really do not think this is wootz and I not think this is laminated steel. Can you post a close up picture of the spine of the blade I am looking for signs of lamination along the back of the blade. Before I started collecting antiques I spent time at many Damascus steel forging seminars and this blade just does not look right to me?

[olikara]

Originally Posted by Lew

Dom

What does JOAR mean?

Lew,
I think Dom means 'Jauhar'.

Nidhi

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Lew

Dom

What does JOAR mean?

there is no fixed spelling in European letter fot transposition of Arabic word (writing) to European word
only the pronunciation of national alphabet make a difference
e.i. "Joar" in French should be writing ; Djouar
but we are not here to play with .. semantic
when it's pronounced in Arabic the sound is near to
- JO'AR -

it's not with me, but in Paris,
in the Saudi book concerning Islamic blades, very good explanation of "Joar" ... Djouar, "Jauar" "Jawhar"

arrived in Cairo today

à +

Dom

ps/ I get an other "Joar", but contemporary fabrication, purchased from a blacksmith (reputed) in Bukhara - Uzbekistan ... pics soon

[Henk]

Originally Posted by fernando

Nah. not the same thing

-

Fernando, it is not the same thing, but the tip has the same meaning.

[Gavin Nugent]

It is the thrird such hilt of this construction that I have seen in the last 12 months and all appeared to have very nice age to them. All were Kards with scabbards that enveloped the hilt. I am sure I have images on file of one because I wanted to buy it for my personal collections. One scabbard was basic timber and old leather and the one I wanted was a scabbard of unusual form in that it was silver with Niello script on the reverse, I will try to find it as perhaps the script will offer a better indication of origins.

Gav

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Henk

Fernando, it is not the same thing, but the tip has the same meaning.

Certainly Henk,
I meant efectiveness.
This one looks (to me) more like a decorative addition .

[Lew]

Here is something interesting concerning Joar.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Xgc...0steel&f=false

[Henk]

Originally Posted by fernando

Certainly Henk,
I meant efectiveness.
This one looks (to me) more like a decorative addition .

Fernando,
You could be very right. As i mentioned before it isn't my field at all. I remembered seeing such tips before.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Lew

It looks Afghan to me but I have a big problem with tip it is totally non functional and it even looks like it was pinned on? The steel looks acid etch to me also.

Hi Lew
to clarify for you, "the tip totally non functional" as you point of view
if the tip who chocked you, has been added on my "Pesh Kabz"
I found a "Wootz Kard" probably Circa 1800 with that type of tip, to pierce mailcoat ...
tip not added, the blade was forged like that (beautiful wootz)

ps/pictures issued from "Akaal Arms" catalog

Best Regards

à +

Dom

[ALEX]

Lew wins These tips are different structurally, one on Persian Kard is meant for reinforcement/piercing, the other has a decorative purpose and was not meant to pierce anything hard/metal. Dom, please do not try, it'll snap below the tip:-)

[Lew]

Hi Dom

You are correct the example shown at the bottom was forged as an integral part of the tip with the proper taper and and shape which is like a flattened triangle.

The one you have seems round and eckhorned shaped with a rivet through it. This could have been a later repair.