Pesh Kabz or ?? Tks for help

fernando · 31st July 2010, 05:52 PM

A very nice looking item Dom,
Nice steel, nice marks.
Not a pesh kabz, i would say.
With that peculiar blade point ... would it actualy be a weapon ?

.
Certainly the experts will ID this piece.
I will hopefuly expect so.
Fernando

Lew · 31st July 2010, 08:15 PM

It looks Afghan to me but I have a big problem with tip it is totally non functional and it even looks like it was pinned on? The steel looks acid etch to me also.

Atlantia · 31st July 2010, 08:44 PM

I like it a lot.
It almost looks to me like a european piece that has been altered to have the 'ring splitter' added, making it more like a similarly 'armed' persian kard.
I also agree with Lew that my first impression of the patterning was 'added'.
Also, is that a 'frog button' on the scabbard?

Henk · 31st July 2010, 09:34 PM

Although it is not my field at all, i like this one very much. Don't know how this kind of dagger is called but the tip is certainly for piercing armor.

http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2942

Found this one on oriental arms. As far as I know they don't have problems with placing the link here.

Nice find.

fernando · 31st July 2010, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

... but the tip is certainly for piercing armor. ...

Nah. not the same thing

-

Dom · 1st August 2010, 08:10 AM

Good Day
thanks a lot to every body for the collaboration
from my side I may add some comments
presently, I'm in Aleppo (Syria) and yesterday I met a Syrian friend, blacksmith, specialist in restoration of islamic blades, Rimon from Damascus for those knows him
- the item is a "composit"
1) blade is oldest than the grip, may be XVII or XVIIIth
2) the scabbard, looks XIXth
3) the blade is without contest "JOAR" not "acid etch"
4) the "tip" may be have been added century ago, but at evidence, not recently

the general impression is a weapon for "action" not for "display" and definitively not a "tourist trap"

today, we are on way to Damascus, may be some discovert ??
and to leave some knifes to be refurbished
and then we will reach Cairo - Egypt, in 4 or 5 days
where any one should visit us, are welcome, I will be their guide inside the souks

à +

Dom

Lew · 1st August 2010, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

Good Day
thanks a lot to every body for the collaboration
from my side I may add some comments
presently, I'm in Aleppo (Syria) and yesterday I met a Syrian friend, blacksmith, specialist in restoration of islamic blades, Rimon from Damascus for those knows him
- the item is a "composit"
1) blade is oldest than the grip, may be XVII or XVIIIth
2) the scabbard, looks XIXth
3) the blade is without contest "JOAR" not "acid etch"
4) the "tip" may be have been added century ago, but at evidence, not recently

the general impression is a weapon for "action" not for "display" and definitively not a "tourist trap"

today, we are on way to Damascus, may be some discovert ??
and to leave some knifes to be refurbished
and then we will reach Cairo - Egypt, in 4 or 5 days
where any one should visit us, are welcome, I will be their guide inside the souks

à +

Dom

Dom

What does JOAR mean? I really do not think this is wootz and I not think this is laminated steel. Can you post a close up picture of the spine of the blade I am looking for signs of lamination along the back of the blade. Before I started collecting antiques I spent time at many Damascus steel forging seminars and this blade just does not look right to me?

Henk · 1st August 2010, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fernando

Nah. not the same thing

-

Fernando, it is not the same thing, but the tip has the same meaning.

Gavin Nugent · 1st August 2010, 09:05 AM

It is the thrird such hilt of this construction that I have seen in the last 12 months and all appeared to have very nice age to them. All were Kards with scabbards that enveloped the hilt. I am sure I have images on file of one because I wanted to buy it for my personal collections. One scabbard was basic timber and old leather and the one I wanted was a scabbard of unusual form in that it was silver with Niello script on the reverse, I will try to find it as perhaps the script will offer a better indication of origins.

Gav

fernando · 1st August 2010, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henk

Fernando, it is not the same thing, but the tip has the same meaning.

Certainly Henk,
I meant efectiveness.
This one looks (to me) more like a decorative addition

.

Dom · 23rd February 2012, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

It looks Afghan to me but I have a big problem with tip it is totally non functional and it even looks like it was pinned on? The steel looks acid etch to me also.

Hi Lew
to clarify for you, "the tip totally non functional" as you point of view
if the tip who chocked you, has been added on my "Pesh Kabz"
I found a "Wootz Kard" probably Circa 1800 with that type of tip, to pierce mailcoat ...
tip not added, the blade was forged like that (beautiful wootz)

ps/pictures issued from "Akaal Arms" catalog

Best Regards

à +

Dom

ALEX · 23rd February 2012, 12:17 PM

Lew wins

These tips are different structurally, one on Persian Kard is meant for reinforcement/piercing, the other has a decorative purpose and was not meant to pierce anything hard/metal. Dom, please do not try, it'll snap below the tip:-)

Lew · 23rd February 2012, 12:30 PM

Hi Dom

You are correct the example shown at the bottom was forged as an integral part of the tip with the proper taper and and shape which is like a flattened triangle.

The one you have seems round and eckhorned shaped with a rivet through it. This could have been a later repair.

1st August 2010, 09:05 AM	#9
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	Third. It is the thrird such hilt of this construction that I have seen in the last 12 months and all appeared to have very nice age to them. All were Kards with scabbards that enveloped the hilt. I am sure I have images on file of one because I wanted to buy it for my personal collections. One scabbard was basic timber and old leather and the one I wanted was a scabbard of unusual form in that it was silver with Niello script on the reverse, I will try to find it as perhaps the script will offer a better indication of origins. Gav

31st July 2010, 05:52 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	A very nice looking item Dom, Nice steel, nice marks. Not a pesh kabz, i would say. With that peculiar blade point ... would it actualy be a weapon ? . Certainly the experts will ID this piece. I will hopefuly expect so. Fernando

31st July 2010, 08:15 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	It looks Afghan to me but I have a big problem with tip it is totally non functional and it even looks like it was pinned on? The steel looks acid etch to me also.

31st July 2010, 08:44 PM	#3
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	I like it a lot. It almost looks to me like a european piece that has been altered to have the 'ring splitter' added, making it more like a similarly 'armed' persian kard. I also agree with Lew that my first impression of the patterning was 'added'. Also, is that a 'frog button' on the scabbard?

31st July 2010, 09:34 PM	#4
Henk Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,209	Although it is not my field at all, i like this one very much. Don't know how this kind of dagger is called but the tip is certainly for piercing armor. http://www.oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=2942 Found this one on oriental arms. As far as I know they don't have problems with placing the link here. Nice find.

1st August 2010, 08:10 AM	#6
Dom Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Paris (FR*) Cairo (EG) Posts: 1,142	Good Day thanks a lot to every body for the collaboration from my side I may add some comments presently, I'm in Aleppo (Syria) and yesterday I met a Syrian friend, blacksmith, specialist in restoration of islamic blades, Rimon from Damascus for those knows him - the item is a "composit" 1) blade is oldest than the grip, may be XVII or XVIIIth 2) the scabbard, looks XIXth 3) the blade is without contest "JOAR" not "acid etch" 4) the "tip" may be have been added century ago, but at evidence, not recently the general impression is a weapon for "action" not for "display" and definitively not a "tourist trap" today, we are on way to Damascus, may be some discovert ?? and to leave some knifes to be refurbished and then we will reach Cairo - Egypt, in 4 or 5 days where any one should visit us, are welcome, I will be their guide inside the souks à + Dom

23rd February 2012, 12:17 PM	#12
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Lew wins These tips are different structurally, one on Persian Kard is meant for reinforcement/piercing, the other has a decorative purpose and was not meant to pierce anything hard/metal. Dom, please do not try, it'll snap below the tip:-)

23rd February 2012, 12:30 PM	#13
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Hi Dom You are correct the example shown at the bottom was forged as an integral part of the tip with the proper taper and and shape which is like a flattened triangle. The one you have seems round and eckhorned shaped with a rivet through it. This could have been a later repair.