Unusual Balkan? Dagger

Atlantia · 24th July 2010, 07:33 PM

Thought you gentlemen might like to see this one. I'm assuming its balkan, but the handle has an almost caucus look to it. Scabbard has a leather cover which if you look closely you can see the outlines of the steel mounts top and bottom through the leather:

Lew · 25th July 2010, 01:29 AM

This does not strike me as Balkin seems Greek maybe Crete? Still I really like it.

Congrats

Atlantia · 25th July 2010, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lew

This does not strike me as Balkin seems Greek maybe Crete? Still I really like it.

Congrats

Hi Lew
Thanks mate, I do like it

The handle shape has me puzzled a bit. I'd even considered Russian.
Best
Gene

Devadatta · 25th July 2010, 07:43 AM

Hello,

100% not Russian

I also think that's Cretan

Atlantia · 25th July 2010, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Devadatta

Hello,

100% not Russian

I also think that's Cretan

LOL, I did say I'd 'considered' it

But why Crete? Isn't the hilt form wrong?

Lew · 25th July 2010, 02:29 PM

Actually this is not from crete looking at the small studs on the hilt and that tiny brass sleeve by the choil I think this could be Bosnian?

Dmitry · 25th July 2010, 04:42 PM

Just a small correction - it's knife, not a dagger.

Rick · 25th July 2010, 04:59 PM

Atlantia · 25th July 2010, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Just a small correction - it's knife, not a dagger.

Potato, potAto

Atlantia · 25th July 2010, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

Hi Rick,
Where's that one hail from?
Is anyone an aficionado of the extended 'Bichaq' family's finer nuances around here?

Rick · 25th July 2010, 07:30 PM

Hi, it's purported to be Bosnian IIRC .
Note the metal studs .

My only Bichaq .

A nice link on this :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=bichaq

Atlantia · 25th July 2010, 10:50 PM

Hi Rick,
We're kinda back to where I started with it

Balkan (possibly) but the hilt is of a type I've not seen on these.
The ones in the thread you linky'd are not quite the same......
Any thoughts?
You have a nice example there, love the hilt shape.

Dmitry · 25th July 2010, 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Potato, potAto

There's no difference between a knife and a dagger then...

Atlantia · 25th July 2010, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

There's no difference between a knife and a dagger then...

Well, for sure the vast majority of daggers are knives, and some knives are daggers

Dictionary definitions seem fairly similar:
'Short pointed knife: a short pointed knife used as a weapon' (Encarta)
'Stabbing weapon with short pointed and edged blade' (Oxford)

Obviously the item in question IS a knife, but to me it goes without saying that it's a dagger also.
So either designation is technically correct in my view.

eftihis · 26th July 2010, 12:01 AM

Hallo friends,
As you can see from the photos bellow, this is a Greek knife. (not from Crete, but from mainland Greece).
These are fairly common knifes made untill recently, yet this kind of handle is atypical, (maybe a makers experiment or a creative inovation inspired from balkan "kamas".)
The first knife in the group photo has exactry the same design on blade as the one we are discussing. (photo n5)
The metal studs decoration exists in bosnian knifes, but is a simple kind of decoration that was obviously used in other places, like is happening with other simple kind of designs, like circles with dots etc...
The 6th photo has a stamped manufacturers name who is "Pourikas Larissa".
"Pourikas" is the makers name and "Larissa" the main city of the Thessalia area in the middle part of Greece. And searching the makers name in this city's telephone directory, it came out as "Pourikas E. cutting tools" ... Propably the maker's son or grandson.
In the 7th photo, the "Made in Greece" inscription is self explanatory...
Finally, the 8th photo has an example with the the date 1934 on it.
Judging from the scabbard, i would say that your knife was made after the war, arround 1950s-1960s.
Regards to all!

Dmitry · 26th July 2010, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Well, for sure the vast majority of daggers are knives, and some knives are daggers

Dictionary definitions seem fairly similar:
'Short pointed knife: a short pointed knife used as a weapon' (Encarta)
'Stabbing weapon with short pointed and edged blade' (Oxford)

Obviously the item in question IS a knife, but to me it goes without saying that it's a dagger also.
So either designation is technically correct in my view.

This "piece" has one cutting edge. Therefore it is a knife, not a dagger.

Atlantia · 26th July 2010, 12:16 AM

Eftihis
Thank you

Thats a nice selection that you have there.
The top one in your pictures (with the same blade) also shares the steel top and bottom to the scabbard that mine has. Is it possible that some of yours started out with leather covers too?

eftihis · 26th July 2010, 12:23 AM

Hi Atlantia, the ones i have, have all their original scabbards. (They look to have the same age as the knife), and it seems that this was the way they made them. But ofcourse a customer can ask a knife maker to make something different if he likes.

Atlantia · 26th July 2010, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dmitry

This "piece" has one cutting edge. Therefore it is a knife, not a dagger.

Many daggers are single edged, how is that relevant?
If it's purpose is also or solely to be used as a stabbing weapon, then it fits the criteria. Like a Kard, or a Tanto, or a Choora etc.
Also, if you really feel the need to re-open this symantics debate, would you mind starting a thread of your own so as to not derail this one.
I'll be happy to offer my opinion there.

Atlantia · 26th July 2010, 12:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eftihis

Hi Atlantia, the ones i have, have all their original scabbards. (They look to have the same age as the knife), and it seems that this was the way they made them. But ofcourse a customer can ask a knife maker to make something different if he likes.

You can see why the hilt totally threw me off of the scent here

Is it possible that it represents a specific area of manufacture, or do you think it is definately just an 'oddity' with no great relevance?
Thanks again for your help

Also Kudos to Lew, who nailed it straight off and Devadatta who came in close with Crete.

eftihis · 26th July 2010, 01:09 AM

I dont know if it is oddity, but i know is not the majority...
But in Greece as in Balkans also, we had the variations of "kinjal" type handle in many designs.

Atlantia · 26th July 2010, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eftihis

I dont know if it is oddity, but i know is not the majority...
But in Greece as in Balkans also, we had the variations of "kinjal" type handle in many designs.

Those are great! I love the fish emblem too.
Well, that explains the caucus style hilt.
Brilliant, thanks again

Do these have a specific name in Greek?

Also.... The leather of the scabbard has a distincly WW2 'feel' to it... if that makes any sense? It feels 'about that age', also the belt loop is about 6cm, like it was to fit a wide 'army' style belt.
Do you think that there is any chance that this could be from that era?

eftihis · 26th July 2010, 01:50 AM

We call them "ka'mas".
"ka'ma" is the word for one, "κa'mas" the plural.

Atlantia · 26th July 2010, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eftihis

We call them "kamas"

Brilliant!

Rick · 26th July 2010, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Rick,
We're kinda back to where I started with it

Balkan (possibly) but the hilt is of a type I've not seen on these.
The ones in the thread you linky'd are not quite the same......
Any thoughts?
You have a nice example there, love the hilt shape.

See post #23 :
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=bichaq
I think these are close enough, no ?

Ask the poster .

kronckew · 26th July 2010, 11:52 AM

greece is of course part of the balkans....

Countries which are geographically fully located within the Balkan peninsula:

* Albania
* Bosnia and Herzegovina
* Bulgaria
* Greece
* Kosovo
* Macedonia
* Montenegro

Countries which are significantly located on the peninsula:

* Serbia (Central Serbia, partially Belgrade region; comprises around 2/3 of country's territory)
* Croatia (around 1/2 of overall territory)
* Slovenia (around 1/3 of overall territory)

Countries which are located mostly outside the peninsula:

* Romania (6% of its territory, comprising Northern Dobruja)
* Turkey (3% of its territory, comprising Eastern Thrace)
* Italy (small part around the city of Trieste)

libra · 26th July 2010, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kronckew

greece is of course part of the balkans....

Countries which are geographically fully located within the Balkan peninsula:

* Albania
* Bosnia and Herzegovina
* Bulgaria
* Greece
* Kosovo
* Macedonia
* Montenegro

Hi kronckew!
I would want to make a correction to your post my friend!
MACEDONIA is part of Greece and not οther country.They is a error that becomes very often.
The country that you mean is FYROM According UN,NATO and European Union!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FYROM
Thank you!

Dmitry · 26th July 2010, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Many daggers are single edged, how is that relevant?

No single-edged daggers come to my mind at the moment.

eftihis · 26th July 2010, 03:33 PM

Hi Kronckew, Greece is of course part of the Balkans, but do not make the assumption that countries and nations that exist in the same geographical area have necessary the same culture and characteristics.
Its like i am saying that US citizens and Mexicans are all "Americans".
Without making a lond speech, i want to say that countries of the Balkans share a common history being inside the same empires (Byzantine, Turkish and some of them Venetian), but there many differences especially when we come in the case of Greece, which being at the end of Balkan peninsula has great influences and a way of life affected by the Mediterranean sea, and by different historical circumstances. Our language is very different from the Slavic that many neigbors share, and also our culture and history.
So not all Greek things fit in the Balkan family, and not all Balkan things relate to Greece.

kronckew · 26th July 2010, 05:08 PM

of course the different countries and regions in the balkans have differing customs, artefacts and cultural histories some of which some areas share with others and some that are not. that's why they have different countries, languages, etc., even the names and sovereignty of some areas are disputed, but geographically they are all balkan, which is what i referred to. any current political differences are not germane to these older artefacts. some of the names we call the areas by may not have even existed at the time the topic's knife was made.

the knives of the whole area do seem, at least to my untutored eyes, to have certain similarities in basic shape, eared grips, etc and even in more details, that would not be found in south east asia. most of the area from istanbul to vienna was trod by the turkish armies at one point or another, and their edged weapons do seem to have affected local design standards, tho somewhat softened by the local non-turkish cultures...

ah, well, i think i'll head downstairs and sharpen my qama, and my texan bowie, it's american (maybe mexican, maybe US).

p.s. - don't forget the canadians, they are americans too!

24th July 2010, 07:33 PM	#1
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Unusual Balkan? Dagger Thought you gentlemen might like to see this one. I'm assuming its balkan, but the handle has an almost caucus look to it. Scabbard has a leather cover which if you look closely you can see the outlines of the steel mounts top and bottom through the leather: Last edited by Atlantia; 24th July 2010 at 07:51 PM.

25th July 2010, 04:59 PM	#8
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Attached Images

25th July 2010, 07:30 PM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,293	Hi, it's purported to be Bosnian IIRC . Note the metal studs . My only Bichaq . A nice link on this : http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ghlight=bichaq Last edited by Rick; 25th July 2010 at 07:46 PM.

25th July 2010, 10:50 PM	#12
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Rick, We're kinda back to where I started with it Balkan (possibly) but the hilt is of a type I've not seen on these. The ones in the thread you linky'd are not quite the same...... Any thoughts? You have a nice example there, love the hilt shape. Last edited by Atlantia; 25th July 2010 at 11:57 PM.

26th July 2010, 12:01 AM	#15
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Its Greek! Hallo friends, As you can see from the photos bellow, this is a Greek knife. (not from Crete, but from mainland Greece). These are fairly common knifes made untill recently, yet this kind of handle is atypical, (maybe a makers experiment or a creative inovation inspired from balkan "kamas".) The first knife in the group photo has exactry the same design on blade as the one we are discussing. (photo n5) The metal studs decoration exists in bosnian knifes, but is a simple kind of decoration that was obviously used in other places, like is happening with other simple kind of designs, like circles with dots etc... The 6th photo has a stamped manufacturers name who is "Pourikas Larissa". "Pourikas" is the makers name and "Larissa" the main city of the Thessalia area in the middle part of Greece. And searching the makers name in this city's telephone directory, it came out as "Pourikas E. cutting tools" ... Propably the maker's son or grandson. In the 7th photo, the "Made in Greece" inscription is self explanatory... Finally, the 8th photo has an example with the the date 1934 on it. Judging from the scabbard, i would say that your knife was made after the war, arround 1950s-1960s. Regards to all! Attached Images Last edited by eftihis; 26th July 2010 at 07:42 AM.

25th July 2010, 01:29 AM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	This does not strike me as Balkin seems Greek maybe Crete? Still I really like it. Congrats

25th July 2010, 07:43 AM	#4
Devadatta Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Moscow, Russia Posts: 118	Hello, 100% not Russian I also think that's Cretan

25th July 2010, 02:29 PM	#6
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Actually this is not from crete looking at the small studs on the hilt and that tiny brass sleeve by the choil I think this could be Bosnian?

25th July 2010, 04:42 PM	#7
Dmitry Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 607	Just a small correction - it's knife, not a dagger.

26th July 2010, 12:16 AM	#17
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Eftihis Thank you Thats a nice selection that you have there. The top one in your pictures (with the same blade) also shares the steel top and bottom to the scabbard that mine has. Is it possible that some of yours started out with leather covers too?

26th July 2010, 12:23 AM	#18
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Hi Atlantia, the ones i have, have all their original scabbards. (They look to have the same age as the knife), and it seems that this was the way they made them. But ofcourse a customer can ask a knife maker to make something different if he likes.

26th July 2010, 01:09 AM	#21
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	I dont know if it is oddity, but i know is not the majority... But in Greece as in Balkans also, we had the variations of "kinjal" type handle in many designs. Attached Images

26th July 2010, 01:50 AM	#23
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	We call them "ka'mas". "ka'ma" is the word for one, "κa'mas" the plural. Last edited by eftihis; 26th July 2010 at 07:40 AM.

26th July 2010, 11:52 AM	#26
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	greece is of course part of the balkans.... Countries which are geographically fully located within the Balkan peninsula: * Albania * Bosnia and Herzegovina * Bulgaria * Greece * Kosovo * Macedonia * Montenegro Countries which are significantly located on the peninsula: * Serbia (Central Serbia, partially Belgrade region; comprises around 2/3 of country's territory) * Croatia (around 1/2 of overall territory) * Slovenia (around 1/3 of overall territory) Countries which are located mostly outside the peninsula: * Romania (6% of its territory, comprising Northern Dobruja) * Turkey (3% of its territory, comprising Eastern Thrace) * Italy (small part around the city of Trieste)

26th July 2010, 03:33 PM	#29
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 507	Hi Kronckew, Greece is of course part of the Balkans, but do not make the assumption that countries and nations that exist in the same geographical area have necessary the same culture and characteristics. Its like i am saying that US citizens and Mexicans are all "Americans". Without making a lond speech, i want to say that countries of the Balkans share a common history being inside the same empires (Byzantine, Turkish and some of them Venetian), but there many differences especially when we come in the case of Greece, which being at the end of Balkan peninsula has great influences and a way of life affected by the Mediterranean sea, and by different historical circumstances. Our language is very different from the Slavic that many neigbors share, and also our culture and history. So not all Greek things fit in the Balkan family, and not all Balkan things relate to Greece.

26th July 2010, 05:08 PM	#30
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,183	of course the different countries and regions in the balkans have differing customs, artefacts and cultural histories some of which some areas share with others and some that are not. that's why they have different countries, languages, etc., even the names and sovereignty of some areas are disputed, but geographically they are all balkan, which is what i referred to. any current political differences are not germane to these older artefacts. some of the names we call the areas by may not have even existed at the time the topic's knife was made. the knives of the whole area do seem, at least to my untutored eyes, to have certain similarities in basic shape, eared grips, etc and even in more details, that would not be found in south east asia. most of the area from istanbul to vienna was trod by the turkish armies at one point or another, and their edged weapons do seem to have affected local design standards, tho somewhat softened by the local non-turkish cultures... ah, well, i think i'll head downstairs and sharpen my qama, and my texan bowie, it's american (maybe mexican, maybe US). p.s. - don't forget the canadians, they are americans too!