Need help with Chinese bronze sword

laEspadaAncha · 24th July 2010, 02:38 AM

Let me add that I have handled (and in fact) Bronze Age weapons from Luristan and Turkey, as wells Bronze Age artifacts from several cultural complexes. I have experience with real patina, and aside form the aforementioned isolated area of encrustation on the hilt, find the patina toe lacking and the "bronze disease" spots are far more more recent - of course, bronze disease can set in at any time.

Were bronze jian made more recently (aside from forgeries and fakes), say within the last few centuries? I just don't think this piece is necessarily old... But it is a quality piece, and seems far too nice for a fake.

I have a half hour to move on this...

VANDOO · 24th July 2010, 04:53 AM

UNLESS YOU ARE REALLY INTERESTED IN COLLECTING CHINESE BRONZE SWORDS AND THE PRICE IS LOW I WOULD NOT RUSH INTO ANYTHING IN THIS FIELD.
THE CHINESE ARE VERY GOOD AT MAKEING BRONZE REPLICAS AND THEY ARE VERY COMMON IN MANY FORMS.
I HAVE A COLLECTION OF CHINESE SWORDS, DAGGERS, ARROW, AX AND ARCHAIC BRONZE VESSELS. ALL OF THE ONES I HAVE I ASSUME TO BE REPLICAS AND HAVE BOUGHT THEM QUITE UNEXPENSIVELY OVER THE YEARS. THE WORKMANSHIP IS VERY GOOD AND JUST THE QUALITY AND BRONZE WORK MAKE THEM A NICE COLLECTION DESPITE THEIR AGE.

THE INVENTION OF EBAY SAW A LARGE INCREASE IN THE AVAILABILITY OF THESE REPLICAS AND A BIG INCREASE IN PRICE. TO COLLECT OLD ORIGINAL CHINESE BRONZE TAKES A LOT OF KNOWLEGE EVEN WHEN YOU HAVE THE ITEM IN HAND. I SUSPECT IT IS NOT UNCOMMON FOR MUSEUMS TO HAVE REPLICAS IN THEIR COLLECTIONS WITHOUT KNOWING IT. I HOPE THIS IS IN TIME TO HELP.

laEspadaAncha · 24th July 2010, 07:40 AM

I ended up passing on it... The patina (in the form of mineral acretions) was nowhere near what one would expect from a bronze item of antiquity. Nonetheless, it was beautiful, and I gave it some more thought, but passed in the end. They did have plenty of legitimate antique pieces, but I really doubt this sword was one of them. I found some close-up photos of legitimate Bronze Age swords from both China and Luristan to show the owner (who didn't speak English), so I could show him the difference. Nonetheless, it was a beautiful and well-made bronze jian with exquisite detail to the hilt. When I get home, I'll move the pics I took from my phone to my computer and post them to this thread.

Once you know what to look for, it is relatively easy to identify natural mineral accretions. The problem is, not all (old) bronze will have them...

Anyway, thank you for chiming in, and at the end of the day, I'm happy to say I saved my money.

Antonio Cejunior · 29th July 2010, 04:01 PM

Well, I guess that you are not aware that there was a large exhibition where many Museum bronze pieces were displayed.
Do check hereand I hope it helps.

Best not to go into a field that is not that much known.

Best,

laEspadaAncha · 29th July 2010, 04:58 PM

I actually have that exhibit bookmarked and have relied upon it as a reference and resource on several occasions, even having referred to it in another thread here earlier in the year with regards to a Kalinga head axe. It is in my opinion a phenomenal online resource.

I had pulled up that exhibit on my phone from the store, but could not view the exhibit photographs at an adequate size to make them useful for my need at the time.

Anyway, later, when I was able to enlarge those photos and view the items up close, it became apparent that the pieces that were featured in the Macao collection exhibit the same mineral accretions and layered encrustation that occurs on Bronze Age pieces from the Near East, which as mentioned in the OP were conspicuously lacking from the sword I was considering.

When I returned to the shop, I did my level best to explain to the owner - who spoke no English (and my Mandarin, aside from "hello," "how are you," "thank you" and "you're welcome" is distinctly lacking) - that the sword lacked the layered accretions one expects from authentic Bronze Age work. He proceeded to show me a horse sculpture that had a better applied patina than the sword. Lacking one of my Luristanian pieces to show him for comparison, I thanked his wife for the tea and was on my way.

While it the moment I let my enthusiasm take the wheel, all's well that ends well, as better judgement prevailed and I passed on what in retrospect I am (near mathematically) certain was a modern reproduction.

29th July 2010, 04:01 PM	#4
Antonio Cejunior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Macau Posts: 294	Bronze weapons from China to view online Well, I guess that you are not aware that there was a large exhibition where many Museum bronze pieces were displayed. Do check hereand I hope it helps. Best not to go into a field that is not that much known. Best,

24th July 2010, 02:38 AM	#1
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	Let me add that I have handled (and in fact) Bronze Age weapons from Luristan and Turkey, as wells Bronze Age artifacts from several cultural complexes. I have experience with real patina, and aside form the aforementioned isolated area of encrustation on the hilt, find the patina toe lacking and the "bronze disease" spots are far more more recent - of course, bronze disease can set in at any time. Were bronze jian made more recently (aside from forgeries and fakes), say within the last few centuries? I just don't think this piece is necessarily old... But it is a quality piece, and seems far too nice for a fake. I have a half hour to move on this...

24th July 2010, 04:53 AM	#2
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	UNLESS YOU ARE REALLY INTERESTED IN COLLECTING CHINESE BRONZE SWORDS AND THE PRICE IS LOW I WOULD NOT RUSH INTO ANYTHING IN THIS FIELD. THE CHINESE ARE VERY GOOD AT MAKEING BRONZE REPLICAS AND THEY ARE VERY COMMON IN MANY FORMS. I HAVE A COLLECTION OF CHINESE SWORDS, DAGGERS, ARROW, AX AND ARCHAIC BRONZE VESSELS. ALL OF THE ONES I HAVE I ASSUME TO BE REPLICAS AND HAVE BOUGHT THEM QUITE UNEXPENSIVELY OVER THE YEARS. THE WORKMANSHIP IS VERY GOOD AND JUST THE QUALITY AND BRONZE WORK MAKE THEM A NICE COLLECTION DESPITE THEIR AGE. THE INVENTION OF EBAY SAW A LARGE INCREASE IN THE AVAILABILITY OF THESE REPLICAS AND A BIG INCREASE IN PRICE. TO COLLECT OLD ORIGINAL CHINESE BRONZE TAKES A LOT OF KNOWLEGE EVEN WHEN YOU HAVE THE ITEM IN HAND. I SUSPECT IT IS NOT UNCOMMON FOR MUSEUMS TO HAVE REPLICAS IN THEIR COLLECTIONS WITHOUT KNOWING IT. I HOPE THIS IS IN TIME TO HELP.

24th July 2010, 07:40 AM	#3
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	I ended up passing on it... The patina (in the form of mineral acretions) was nowhere near what one would expect from a bronze item of antiquity. Nonetheless, it was beautiful, and I gave it some more thought, but passed in the end. They did have plenty of legitimate antique pieces, but I really doubt this sword was one of them. I found some close-up photos of legitimate Bronze Age swords from both China and Luristan to show the owner (who didn't speak English), so I could show him the difference. Nonetheless, it was a beautiful and well-made bronze jian with exquisite detail to the hilt. When I get home, I'll move the pics I took from my phone to my computer and post them to this thread. Once you know what to look for, it is relatively easy to identify natural mineral accretions. The problem is, not all (old) bronze will have them... Anyway, thank you for chiming in, and at the end of the day, I'm happy to say I saved my money.

29th July 2010, 04:58 PM	#5
laEspadaAncha Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 608	I actually have that exhibit bookmarked and have relied upon it as a reference and resource on several occasions, even having referred to it in another thread here earlier in the year with regards to a Kalinga head axe. It is in my opinion a phenomenal online resource. I had pulled up that exhibit on my phone from the store, but could not view the exhibit photographs at an adequate size to make them useful for my need at the time. Anyway, later, when I was able to enlarge those photos and view the items up close, it became apparent that the pieces that were featured in the Macao collection exhibit the same mineral accretions and layered encrustation that occurs on Bronze Age pieces from the Near East, which as mentioned in the OP were conspicuously lacking from the sword I was considering. When I returned to the shop, I did my level best to explain to the owner - who spoke no English (and my Mandarin, aside from "hello," "how are you," "thank you" and "you're welcome" is distinctly lacking) - that the sword lacked the layered accretions one expects from authentic Bronze Age work. He proceeded to show me a horse sculpture that had a better applied patina than the sword. Lacking one of my Luristanian pieces to show him for comparison, I thanked his wife for the tea and was on my way. While it the moment I let my enthusiasm take the wheel, all's well that ends well, as better judgement prevailed and I passed on what in retrospect I am (near mathematically) certain was a modern reproduction.