Unknown pamor

A. G. Maisey · 11th July 2010, 12:56 AM

I thank you for your comments , Jean.

A guru is simply a teacher, and I would prefer to be known as somebody who attempts to assist by imparting information, rather than to be tagged as a "guru", a designation that in the western world carries a whole lot of baggage with it.

Yes, it is true that I have been fortunate in making the right connections at the right times, and because of this I have gained exposure to knowledge, understanding and training that is not generally available. However, this does not mean that others who have an intense interest in the keris and its culture cannot follow their own path to knowledge. All it requires is committment.

Garrett Solyom once said to me that of the people who have a deeper knowledge of the keris, no one person had a complete understanding, but that we all had a little bit:- "--- none of us has it all, but each of us has a part ---".

This is absolutely true.

Any person who has the committment can further his knowledge of the keris and its culture, and the result will be an addition to overall knowledge.I have my own approach, considerations, and knowledge, but somebody else who has a different mindset will gain different knowledge.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a collector. We all probably began as collectors. However, if we wish to learn, we must study, and study requires a lot more effort than simply accumulating objects.

The difference between a collector of keris, and a student of the keris is the difference between a storeman and an engineer:- both have different skills, and both are essential in the functioning of a major undertaking, but the difference between them is that the storeman can classify perfectly, whilst the engineer understands that which goes into providing the classification.

However, to return to the blade in question.I think we have probably come back to where we began. It really needs a very close examination under magnification by somebody who understands a little bit about pattern welding, after that a firm opinion may be able to be formed.

Jean · 11th July 2010, 08:57 AM

Dear Alan,
I know bahasa Indonesia a little and I exactly meant guru a a teacher, as many of us consider you in this way. I remember reading your article about the early krisses several years ago, which I found very interesting and which has no equivalent in any book. You have been able to transmit us some knowledge about the kris in a very rational way while being cautious and respectful of the tradition.
Many kris collectors would like and try hard to be students but being away from the kris scene both from the geographic and historical points of view makes it difficult so we rely on you!
I hope that I can show you this blade one day, who knows?
Thank you again and best regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 11th July 2010, 10:48 AM

OK Jean, understood. Thanks.

A. G. Maisey · 31st July 2010, 01:23 AM

I have a friend who is one of the current era's great pattern welders.

He is a modest, and rather retiring man, but he would possibly deny this, however, his body of work speaks for itself.

He is , I think, a member of this Forum, but he prefers not to post to it.

A few days ago he sent me some sketches that set forth his ideas on the way in which this pamor might have been made. These sketches do not, of course, answer Jean's question in respect of name, and if indeed my friend is correct about the way the pattern was constructed, then I think we can say that this was not an attempt at any known pamor, but is a new pattern, the name known only to the maker.

As I have said, this man is a great pattern welder. On a scale of one to ten I rate my knowledge level in this area as about 3 or 4, and I rate his knowledge level as about 8 or 9. He is vastly more knowledgeable in pattern welding than I am. Even though he is not really tuned into keris and has almost no knowledge at all of the way the smiths in Jawa and Madura work, we must take notice of his opinion because although the details of his theoretical construction might be wrong, it is very probable that his broad concept is correct.

The sketches I am publishing here were prepared by him for his students, and he has graciously agreed to their publication here.

Jean · 31st July 2010, 09:38 AM

Alan,
Welcome back to the forum

(we missed you a lot), thank you very much for the technical information, and I am glad to have found this blade with unique pamor X!
Best regards
Jean

31st July 2010, 01:23 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,994	I have a friend who is one of the current era's great pattern welders. He is a modest, and rather retiring man, but he would possibly deny this, however, his body of work speaks for itself. He is , I think, a member of this Forum, but he prefers not to post to it. A few days ago he sent me some sketches that set forth his ideas on the way in which this pamor might have been made. These sketches do not, of course, answer Jean's question in respect of name, and if indeed my friend is correct about the way the pattern was constructed, then I think we can say that this was not an attempt at any known pamor, but is a new pattern, the name known only to the maker. As I have said, this man is a great pattern welder. On a scale of one to ten I rate my knowledge level in this area as about 3 or 4, and I rate his knowledge level as about 8 or 9. He is vastly more knowledgeable in pattern welding than I am. Even though he is not really tuned into keris and has almost no knowledge at all of the way the smiths in Jawa and Madura work, we must take notice of his opinion because although the details of his theoretical construction might be wrong, it is very probable that his broad concept is correct. The sketches I am publishing here were prepared by him for his students, and he has graciously agreed to their publication here. Attached Images

11th July 2010, 12:56 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,994	I thank you for your comments , Jean. A guru is simply a teacher, and I would prefer to be known as somebody who attempts to assist by imparting information, rather than to be tagged as a "guru", a designation that in the western world carries a whole lot of baggage with it. Yes, it is true that I have been fortunate in making the right connections at the right times, and because of this I have gained exposure to knowledge, understanding and training that is not generally available. However, this does not mean that others who have an intense interest in the keris and its culture cannot follow their own path to knowledge. All it requires is committment. Garrett Solyom once said to me that of the people who have a deeper knowledge of the keris, no one person had a complete understanding, but that we all had a little bit:- "--- none of us has it all, but each of us has a part ---". This is absolutely true. Any person who has the committment can further his knowledge of the keris and its culture, and the result will be an addition to overall knowledge.I have my own approach, considerations, and knowledge, but somebody else who has a different mindset will gain different knowledge. There is absolutely nothing wrong with being a collector. We all probably began as collectors. However, if we wish to learn, we must study, and study requires a lot more effort than simply accumulating objects. The difference between a collector of keris, and a student of the keris is the difference between a storeman and an engineer:- both have different skills, and both are essential in the functioning of a major undertaking, but the difference between them is that the storeman can classify perfectly, whilst the engineer understands that which goes into providing the classification. However, to return to the blade in question.I think we have probably come back to where we began. It really needs a very close examination under magnification by somebody who understands a little bit about pattern welding, after that a firm opinion may be able to be formed.

11th July 2010, 08:57 AM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Dear Alan, I know bahasa Indonesia a little and I exactly meant guru a a teacher, as many of us consider you in this way. I remember reading your article about the early krisses several years ago, which I found very interesting and which has no equivalent in any book. You have been able to transmit us some knowledge about the kris in a very rational way while being cautious and respectful of the tradition. Many kris collectors would like and try hard to be students but being away from the kris scene both from the geographic and historical points of view makes it difficult so we rely on you! I hope that I can show you this blade one day, who knows? Thank you again and best regards Jean

11th July 2010, 10:48 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,994	OK Jean, understood. Thanks.

31st July 2010, 09:38 AM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Alan, Welcome back to the forum (we missed you a lot), thank you very much for the technical information, and I am glad to have found this blade with unique pamor X! Best regards Jean