Proposed Changes in Swap Forum Rules

[fearn]

Hi Lew and all,

I think we've still got some contradictions here. Personally, I have bought a couple of things on the swap forum, and it is useful to have a price on there. However, that forum isn't a store, and I respect the people who only give out price info when contacted.

I also respect those who want to swap things. That leaves me out, because I have a small collection, and I would have to swap money for most of the things I see. In that sense, a desire to trade among friends is certainly exclusionary.

So we've got a couple of conflicting desires at play here, it seems.
--the moderators want less work, and this seems to be primarily the work of chasing down questionable dealers.
--the senior members want to trade with each other, potentially to the exclusion of newbies. A newbie can see what's being traded, but unless they have something of equal value, they can't obtain it. The long term problem with this approach is that the group needs to continually recruit new members in order to survive.
--Other people want to sell their pieces, either by posting them directly or by linking to their own sites.
--Rules such as in the keris forum kill the trade. Nice for moderators (less work), but not terribly useful for anyone else.

Obviously, the forum can't have all three characteristics.

I'd suggest two things:
1. Split off a swap forum. Create a place where money does not change hands and commercial activity is not tolerated. This will preserve the exchange that some members value, and the rules would be clear. Posts not following them would either be moved or deleted.
2. Have a buy/sell/trade forum for commerce. Caveat emptor should be the rule here, but potential purchasers should be free to comment (as a method of quality control). Actively malicious material should be removed, but otherwise, it would be more equivalent to the swap board of last year.

[kronckew]

as a moderator on a commercial security software firewall's user support forum, i am a bit more paranoid about revealing my mailing address or posting links on a searchable site that is open to bots and slurp spiders et al.

posting items and photos of my stuff and discussing them in the appropriate forums is one thing, but if i decide to sell, i'd sell somewhere i did not have to reveal personal details to the world that could compromise my location. it's not tough to find, but i don't go advertising myself either. for similar reasons i'd not want to post prices for my stuff that they could add up to see if it were worthwhile paying me a surprise visit some night. it should be a recommendation, not an absolute requirement.

i also see no reason to not post that an item is now up for auction on e-pray or other site, as long as it is obvious that the poster is a discussion member here and the item auctioned is indeed his, especially if he's advertised it here & no-one has jumped at it.

i have not as yet used the swap forum but am uneasy about 3 & 4. i would go along with them as recommendations, but not as absolutes.

something to prohibit posts until members have a certain number of posts in the discussion fora, to discourage dealers only using the swap/sale forum would also be appropriate. the mods here are smart enough to use their discretion in grey areas, if the rules are too tight, it removes their discretionary powers. in other words, let common sense apply.

i like the caveat emptor bit and am a firm believer in if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Maurice]

Hi all,

I have seen a lot of ideas which I think would be great and very usable.
For instance that dealermembers could have a dealer designation on their avatar so that other members would know to look in their profile for their websites, which David pointed out (probably an idea from Gavin, if I understood well).

Also the splitting of the swap forum that Fearn pointed I think could be another good idea....

By the way, I deal a little besides my collecting, and all the money will be pumped in my own collection or other good genuine antique pointy things which will be sold or swapped.....And believe me, it is not very profitable (IF it is profitable at all). It takes a lot of work to maintain a website and the only pieces I have for sale once in a while are always pieces I like myself and most of the time have been (the one longer as the other) in my own collection....
Indeed some pieces go with a bit of a profit, but most of the pieces went to friendcollectors with swapping, or even with a great loss of money.....
There are also pieces I had obtained after a whole day driving to friendcollectors, and what is a euro50,- than for profit?? (Only to fill the fuel of my car is euro 8o,- that day, let alone the time I spent in trafficjam, and afterwards taking images, placing information and finally wrap them up and put them to the postoffice again)
So believe me when I am saying that a website is very time resuming (taking images, uploading, place the information etc. etc.) and I know that nobody is pushing me to do so....and it is my own free will.
But I am doing it because I like to learn, study and collect pieces. Also besides that I like to get in contact with collectors who have the same passion I have. Therefore I have my website, and also ofcourse to show my own collection, inclusive all information I have found out on the pieces.

The "dealers" that are posting in this thread, have a great heart for ethnographic swords, and also are always very helpfull to help other members.
Even, in my case, every member here on the forum is welcome to visit me when in The Netherlands...........and not for having a piece sold, but just to meet, shake hands, and talk about our mutual hobby...and I am sure other "dealers" have the same heart as me.
Ofcourse there are dealers who are very rude and sell crap, only to gain a lot of money....But I am sure the members who are a member for quite a time, can pick them out very easily...

I like the forum, and when not posting anymore in the swapdepartment as a dealer, so be it..
I leave that to the moderators, who are doing a great job.
But as Lee mentioned in the beginning of the thread: "Constructive comments and observations on the swap forum, on how it exists presently and how it may be improved, may be made as replies to this thread or may be privately communicated to the moderator of your choice."

So all comments should be seen in this way, and not to complain about moderators. Also some statements shouldn't be taken so literally, but with a grain of salt...

Kind Regards,
Maurice

[David]

Originally Posted by fearn

So we've got a couple of conflicting desires at play here, it seems.
--the moderators want less work, and this seems to be primarily the work of chasing down questionable dealers.
--the senior members want to trade with each other, potentially to the exclusion of newbies. A newbie can see what's being traded, but unless they have something of equal value, they can't obtain it. The long term problem with this approach is that the group needs to continually recruit new members in order to survive.
--Other people want to sell their pieces, either by posting them directly or by linking to their own sites.
--Rules such as in the keris forum kill the trade. Nice for moderators (less work), but not terribly useful for anyone else.

Firstly i take offense to your stance that this issue is all about creating less work for the moderators and your statement that the Keris Swap rules are fine for the moderators, but terrible for anybody else. You seem to have either not read or not understood what was behind the rules for the Keris Swap and you also seem to have lost sight of the fact that while a moderator i am also an avid collector who would love to be able to see collectors trade or sell off parts of their collection on the Keris Swap. What i didn't like were the constant games and attempts at rip-offs. I spend a great deal of my own freely given time here moderating discussion and sorting this stuff out, yet i guess you seem to feel that we mods owe you even more of our freely given time. Nice!
Also sorry that you have a chip on your shoulder in regards to the larger collections of senior members, but i don't think there is any kind of exclusionary club going on here. I am also pretty convinced that the large majority of items that are put up for swap most often end up being let go for a cash sum in private messaging dealings. This is why i think it is probably best for trader/sellers to place a cash value even if their initial intention is to trade. That would also give someone who is unclear of the value of an item an idea of what would be a worth piece to offer in exchange.
And believe me Fearn, that we have driven unsavory, dishonest dealers off the Keris Swap is in no way "terrible for everyone else". Unless it is your desire to purchase a countless array of contemporary keris artificially aged and presented as Mataram or Mojophahit weapons. Then you are obviously missing out on being ripped off. Sorry if we interfered with that.
If you spend anytime on the actual keris forum though you might find that the discussions there are alive and deeply informative. And any collector who wants to pass on a weapon through the swap can do so without much trouble and without paying the percentages required for eBay and other online auctions. I would be interested in knowing exactly what rules the Keris Swap has that are preventing sales from happening.

Originally Posted by fearn

Obviously, the forum can't have all three characteristics.

I'd suggest two things:
1. Split off a swap forum. Create a place where money does not change hands and commercial activity is not tolerated. This will preserve the exchange that some members value, and the rules would be clear. Posts not following them would either be moved or deleted.
2. Have a buy/sell/trade forum for commerce. Caveat emptor should be the rule here, but potential purchasers should be free to comment (as a method of quality control). Actively malicious material should be removed, but otherwise, it would be more equivalent to the swap board of last year.

A separate Swap Only forum would solve nothing since as i pointed out the majority of swaps turn into cash sales anyway.
As for point #2, how do we decide what is actively malicious material? Who amongst us is knowledgeable enough in all fields of weapons to judge whether a comment is correct or just a smear? Who wants to give even more of their time to trying to sort all that out? And as i recall there was a great deal of trouble on last year's swap board when someone made an inaccurate comment the killed a very big deal for one of our members. I don't recall the exact details, but i am sure someone can fill you in. I think it might have been Gavin's reputation that got unjustly smeared. Forgive me if i am wrong on that Gav. This is why we installed the policy of not permitting members to make any comments of items that are put up for swap.

[fearn]

Originally Posted by David

Firstly i take offense to your stance that this issue is all about creating less work for the moderators and your statement that the Keris Swap rules are fine for the moderators, but terrible for anybody else. You seem to have either not read or not understood what was behind the rules for the Keris Swap and you also seem to have lost sight of the fact that while a moderator i am also an avid collector who would love to be able to see collectors trade or sell off parts of their collection on the Keris Swap. What i didn't like were the constant games and attempts at rip-offs. I spend a great deal of my own freely given time here moderating discussion and sorting this stuff out, yet i guess you seem to feel that we mods owe you even more of our freely given time. Nice!

David,

No offense was intended, but I can't stop you from taking offense. Seriously.

If there's nothing wrong, then there's no reason to change the rules, right? And if you're spending a lot of your free time dealing with idiots like me, I think we can both agree that's a waste of your time.

You owe me nothing. However, I think your free time is valuable, if only to you, and that was the basis for my remark. You should not have to spend all your time policing this site. My assumption (perhaps a false one) was that one of the causes for the proposed rule change was that you were spending time moderating when you could better use it else.

Frank

[Mytribalworld]

Hi,

I must say that I appriciate the way this forum is once set up and its quite normal that from time to time you overvieuw the system and want to makes things better,renew etc. Also rules may change as time learns and collectors and ways to collect changes, no problem with that all.

Being collector and dealer in one I have always struggled with the question whats the part in me that collects and which part is the dealer? Its quite an unique job and still I haven't found an answer for it.

Commercial is a easy word but " we dealers" don't run a supermarket or photographer store, most dealers ( I don't know any dealer who doesn't collect) are collector themself. We are buying and selling mostly scarce objects and be sure finding, describing and selling cost a lot of time.
A lot of time is mostly invested in study as knowledge is a thing the dealer should have to select his objects. This forum has always been a great place to share info for both parties ( dealers,collectors)

I can be wrong in my interpretation but I have the feeling that there will come more space between the two with the new rules.
If its good for the forum the time will learn, we'll see.
I really hope course I think the intensions are well meant.

for me personal I don't think a link or not make any difference in selling results, but I prefer to have the freedom to do so.
( there are so much great links coming this year and I am sure you wouldn't miss them!

best regards and good luck with the forum!,

Arjan

[Lew]

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi Lew and all,




So we've got a couple of conflicting desires at play here, it seems.
--the moderators want less work, and this seems to be primarily the work of chasing down questionable dealers.
--the senior members want to trade with each other, potentially to the exclusion of newbies. A newbie can see what's being traded, but unless they have something of equal value, they can't obtain it. The long term problem with this approach is that the group needs to continually recruit new members in order to survive.
--Other people want to sell their pieces, either by posting them directly or by linking to their own sites.
--Rules such as in the keris forum kill the trade. Nice for moderators (less work), but not terribly useful for anyone else.

Obviously, the forum can't have all three characteristics.

I'd suggest two things:
1. Split off a swap forum. Create a place where money does not change hands and commercial activity is not tolerated. This will preserve the exchange that some members value, and the rules would be clear. Posts not following them would either be moved or deleted.
2. Have a buy/sell/trade forum for commerce. Caveat emptor should be the rule here, but potential purchasers should be free to comment (as a method of quality control). Actively malicious material should be removed, but otherwise, it would be more equivalent to the swap board of last year.

Sorry Fearn it is not a question of more work and this is a nonprofit forum none of the moderators are paid it is solely done on a volunteer basis and we do not sell space for advertising. So your point on needing new members to survive makes no sense. As far as newbies not being able to trade because they have small or no collections to offer for trade well that is one of the hurdles one must face when starting a hobby. How do you think we all started here? My dad did not leave me a collection I started with a kris and a barong and built up from there. Btw only about 1-5 percent of my collection was obtained through the swap on this forum all my other stuff was purchased via ebay,shows or through dealers websites.

[David]

Originally Posted by Lew

Sorry Fearn it is not a question of more work and this is a nonprofit forum none of the moderators are paid it is solely done on a volunteer basis and we do not sell space for advertising. So your point on needing new members to survive makes no sense.

Yeah, that comment baffled me as well. Maybe the Swap Forums need newbie collectors to survive, but the forums would remain strong places of discussion regardless of new membership. Not that new members are being discouraged. Fresh blood always has something new to offer. But long time members who like to trade with other members will always be able to do so and their collections will be constantly be growing from a myriad of other sources so there will always be new items to swap. No need to do any active recruiting. I don't think any of these "Senior Collectors" have built the bulk of their collection through our little swap forum. I have never bought or swapped a single thing in the Swap Forum, yet my collection keeps growing.
BTW, changes in the Swap are not being considered in order to drive the combination collector/dealer off the site. We have many collector/dealers here who are highly valuable, respected and active members.

[kahnjar1]

I see that there have now been many replies to this thread, which is encouraging.....BUT.....THERE IS STILL NO REPLY FROM ANY OF THE MODERATORS STATING WHY THEY ARE CONSIDERING THESE CHANGES. Is this change for change sake?..... or is there a REAL reason for the considerations?
If a subject like this is to be PROPERLY debated, then surely the reasons behind the issue need to be made public.
Stuart

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

I see that there have now been many replies to this thread, which is encouraging.....BUT.....THERE IS STILL NO REPLY FROM ANY OF THE MODERATORS STATING WHY THEY ARE CONSIDERING THESE CHANGES. Is this change for change sake?..... or is there a REAL reason for the considerations?
If a subject like this is to be PROPERLY debated, then surely the reasons behind the issue need to be made public.
Stuart

And you will get no such response. The purpose of this thread was not to encourage a debate (proper or otherwise), but as a courtesy to the membership, and to solicit constructive feedback.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but we could simply have changed the rules with no notice whatsoever. And, yes, making life easier for our Staff is a significant concern. We're entitled to it.

Let's get back to the "constructive feedback", or I will simply close this thread.

Andrew

[fearn]

Originally Posted by David

Yeah, that comment baffled me as well. Maybe the Swap Forums need newbie collectors to survive, but the forums would remain strong places of discussion regardless of new membership. Not that new members are being discouraged. Fresh blood always has something new to offer. But long time members who like to trade with other members will always be able to do so and their collections will be constantly be growing from a myriad of other sources so there will always be new items to swap. No need to do any active recruiting. I don't think any of these "Senior Collectors" have built the bulk of their collection through our little swap forum. I have never bought or swapped a single thing in the Swap Forum, yet my collection keeps growing.
BTW, changes in the Swap are not being considered in order to drive the combination collector/dealer off the site. We have many collector/dealers here who are highly valuable, respected and active members.

Explanation: If newbies feel like there's an inner circle they can't crack, then most of them don't stick around. I spend a lot of time with other interest groups, and it's a huge problem.

The non-profit group I'm most active with is currently struggling with a declining membership and an average member age that's increasing. One of the chief complaints of the faction that's trying to open up the membership is the perception by newbies that there's an old, established, in-group who aren't much interested in them. Most of that in-group protest that nothing could be further from the truth, yet we don't get many truly new members to stay around and become old members. I'm an old member, but I think there's a lot of truth in the newbies' complaint.

Similarly, some (not all) of the moderators seem to want things to go back to "the way things used to be." Given my experience, this is a danger signal, in that it suggests formation of a small, old guard that effectively repels newbies, even though it attempts to be open.

This is not meant as a criticism of the policies of this board, nor its moderators or members. I like this site, even though I contribute very little. What I am pointing out is that people of good will, for the best of intentions, can harm a group through actions designed to help it. I'm dealing with one of those situations right now, and I'm hoping that it doesn't happen here as well.

Best,

F

[Andrew]

Not at all what's going on here, Fearn. Quite the contrary, actually.

Thanks to everyone for the constructive input.

Best,
Andrew