Proposed Changes in Swap Forum Rules

[Lew]

As for posting an asking price for a sale items. I belong to a few other collector sites and they are pretty clear on this matter you must post a price if you are selling an item. So if these other forums use this rule why is it such a big deal here? Btw email addresses should be optional IMO.

Gav

Since you are a dealer which one of the purposed rules do you have issues with?

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by Lew

As for posting an asking price for a sale items. I belong to a few other collector sites and they are pretty clear on this matter you must post a price if you are selling an item. So if these other forums use this rule why is it such a big deal here? Btw email addresses should be optional IMO.

Gav

Since you are a dealer which one of the purposed rules do you have issues with?

Lew,

Rules are rules and I have no problem with rules, dealer or not if they be put in place, they must however be clear.

My initial thoughts were expressed to Lee and I am sure here has bought them to the table internally as I have seen one point expressed above.

I'm pretty easy going Lew, my philosopy is simple, what comes will come, what stays will stay and what goes will go. The rules may come the rules may go, thats life, but saying that, I like all things to be equal and everyone to be on an even playing field in a shared enviroment, I am like that and very fair with my own employees in my own role as a State Business Coordinator for a large rail company, no one has the upper hand and we all share the same open office plan, nothing is hidden.

What is the definition of a dealer by the way? Is it some one who makes their living out of dealing? I ask cause that aint me. Mine is a hobby, I buy and sell and have a point of sale for the benfit of others to find what they want and to grow my own personal collections, nothing more, it doesn't line my pockets or build me ivory towers.

Look what has happened with the Keris swap forum, sure there was a need to do something but now Keirs swap has dried up, people don't bother. IMHO the people being the issue in the Keris forum should have been handled, not the Keris swap forum, it 'appears' to benefit no one but the moderators now.

Is there a need to do something about the ethno forum? Obviously or there wouldn't be this discussion going on. Tell us what the issues are , this makes proposed change easier to deal with for some I am sure.

I feel that after seeing the keris swap 'die' in 'absolute' rules, this ethno swap might too. If the people are an issue, talk to the people and get a resolution, if dealers post to often in a style thats not to taste talk to them, if single sellers (who I still call a dealer depending of frequency) are bumping to much to often talk to them.
The issue I see in these proposed changes is not seeing the clartiy of the 'whys', the full picture. Is there dealer or Ebay resentment out there? I don't know? Is there? I know I do a lot for free for a lot of people here and they are the only ones who see this, recently I helped ISPN dispose of his Dha to a non member, nothing for me. Will I take an interest in the swap forum and the other people within its pages if I am closed out because I have a website, probably not, just another step closer to the keris forum in my eyes and others I know. Will I be missed in the swap forum, I think not. Will it bother me? Not really. Will I continue to converse in the forum pages, of course, life goes on.

But I put to you Lew as a moderator rep;
Why the proposed changes? The full picture.
What are the becauses behind the proposed changes?
Most of all, what are the expected benefits from the proposed changes? To change anything there must be a benefit???

Originally Posted by David

Is the swap forum really a major reason for anyone to visit these forums? Isn't it the intensive and well-informed discussion of ethnographic weapons which, AFAIK can't be found at this level anywhere else on the Internet? The swap forum was originally begun to allow our collecting members a way to dispose of items they no longer wanted and offer them to other collecting members who might have a place in their collections for such an item. It was never intended to be a clearing house for dealers or a place for competitive auctions.

I am confused about this reasoning. Naming a price in no way means that the seller cannot settle for a lower price in negotiation with a buyer or decide to trade with a potential buyer if the buyer offers a piece that interests the seller. It does set the price that the seller expects and keeps the swap from becoming an auction house with competing bidding. It also give a potential swapper an idea of the value of the piece in the seller's eyes and some idea of what might be an acceptable item to offer in swap to the seller.

It has always been a problem to discuss particular items that are currently up for sale or auction. I believe the same would be true of captured images if the item is currently up for sale.
In terms of regular dealers making people aware of their websites, websites can always be posted in a member's profile page. Perhaps dealer members could have a dealer designation on their avatar so that other members would know to look in their profile for their websites. As for updates, i would assume that active dealers are always updating their websites and that interested parties would check in from time to time anyway.

Originally Posted by David

Well Gav, i did a bit of that in my post #13, to which no one seems to have responded to other than other moderators.

David,

I do see part of the picture expressed about where it was and were it is, this is nice to have it suggested. If these are the reasons at to why this is proposed great, spell it out loud and clear, put a sticky in the swap forum and monitor it. Too easy.
For me points 1,2,5 all good but points 3&4 all good too but the statements are non clear proposals. I have trouble getting my head around the word 'may', too vague. What is it? It either will or it wont, this is my question about the use of this word 'may' in points 3&4. Answering this may add a little more clarity. The rest of the content I see as just 'what to do' notions not why reasons.

Gav

[David]

Originally Posted by freebooter

What is the definition of a dealer by the way? Is it some one who makes their living out of dealing?

My own personal definition of a dealer is anyone who regularly makes a profit from the resale of items. Whether this is the person's major source of income in immaterial.

Originally Posted by freebooter

Look what has happened with the Keris swap forum, sure there was a need to do something but now Keirs swap has dried up, people don't bother. IMHO the people being the issue in the Keris forum should have been handled, not the Keris swap forum, it 'appears' to benefit no one but the moderators now.
I feel that after seeing the keris swap 'die' in 'absolute' rules, this ethno swap might too.

99% of what was being posted in terms of keris for sale in these forums was being done so by opportunistic dealers who either spent no time whatsoever contributing to discussion in the keris forum or, worse yet, used discussion in the forum to manipulate information for their sales.There was constant misrepresentation of the age and quality of pieces and in a genre of collection where there are constant forgeries and artificially aged pieces things were getting way out of hand. It's easy to say handle the people, not the swap, but in practice it was near impossible. Dealers were using the Keris Forum itself to subtly introduce keris that were intended for sale. Banned dealers often resurfaced with new tag names and keeping track became a complicated case of cat and mouse. Personally, as a collector of keris, i have never used the swap to make any purchases, though i have been tempted by a few items that i just couldn't afford. I make my purchases from a few well know and trusted dealers who, while members here, don't seem to see the need to use the swap forums at all to sell their items. Every now and then i make a gamble on ePray if i think i see a deal or a sleeper item. But as the rules exist today i would find no problem offering a keris for sale if i wanted to lighten my own collection. I have, in fact been considering doing just that and i don't see what particular rule is so constricting that i would find myself unable to place an ad there. It's certainly a whole lot less complicated then putting up an auction on eBay and i don't have to pay anyone a percentage of my sale. The service is absolutely free for members. It does, of course, become a problem when people become members with the main emphasis being to set up a free sales site on our forum. This is obviously not the case with you. I find you to be a valued and involved member who spends much time contributing to forum discussion. But this is not every dealers take (and yes Gav, even though you have a "day job" i do consider you a dealer. You have a website and i am sure that you make at least some profit, however small, on the re-sale of your items) and frankly i would love to see the swap return to the spirit of a collector-centric outlet. Let's face it, just about all of us scourer eBay practically daily for deals. Dealer member websites can be clearly found on profile pages if members are searching for items. Most of us are already aware of them and if we like them they are bookmarked on our computers. The importance of Vikingsword and it's original purpose and design is one of sharing discussion and knowledge, of exploring the world of ethnographic weaponry. It's membership is knowledge, varied and international and the type of information that can be found here is often more accurate and detailed than any book or museum curator is capable of providing. It is not now, nor has it ever been primarily a place of commerce and if either selling or buying weapons is anyone real reason for being here then i am afraid that they are missing out on the bigger picture.

[Gavin Nugent]

Originally Posted by David

My own personal definition of a dealer is anyone who regularly makes a profit from the resale of items. Whether this is the person's major source of income in immaterial.

99% of what was being posted in terms of keris for sale in these forums was being done so by opportunistic dealers who either spent no time whatsoever contributing to discussion in the keris forum or, worse yet, used discussion in the forum to manipulate information for their sales.There was constant misrepresentation of the age and quality of pieces and in a genre of collection where there are constant forgeries and artificially aged pieces things were getting way out of hand. It's easy to say handle the people, not the swap, but in practice it was near impossible. Dealers were using the Keris Forum itself to subtly introduce keris that were intended for sale. Banned dealers often resurfaced with new tag names and keeping track became a complicated case of cat and mouse. Personally, as a collector of keris, i have never used the swap to make any purchases, though i have been tempted by a few items that i just couldn't afford. I make my purchases from a few well know and trusted dealers who, while members here, don't seem to see the need to use the swap forums at all to sell their items. Every now and then i make a gamble on ePray if i think i see a deal or a sleeper item. But as the rules exist today i would find no problem offering a keris for sale if i wanted to lighten my own collection. I have, in fact been considering doing just that and i don't see what particular rule is so constricting that i would find myself unable to place an ad there. It's certainly a whole lot less complicated then putting up an auction on eBay and i don't have to pay anyone a percentage of my sale. The service is absolutely free for members. It does, of course, become a problem when people become members with the main emphasis being to set up a free sales site on our forum. This is obviously not the case with you. I find you to be a valued and involved member who spends much time contributing to forum discussion. But this is not every dealers take (and yes Gav, even though you have a "day job" i do consider you a dealer. You have a website and i am sure that you make at least some profit, however small, on the re-sale of your items) and frankly i would love to see the swap return to the spirit of a collector-centric outlet. Let's face it, just about all of us scourer eBay practically daily for deals. Dealer member websites can be clearly found on profile pages if members are searching for items. Most of us are already aware of them and if we like them they are bookmarked on our computers. The importance of Vikingsword and it's original purpose and design is one of sharing discussion and knowledge, of exploring the world of ethnographic weaponry. It's membership is knowledge, varied and international and the type of information that can be found here is often more accurate and detailed than any book or museum curator is capable of providing. It is not now, nor has it ever been primarily a place of commerce and if either selling or buying weapons is anyone real reason for being here then i am afraid that they are missing out on the bigger picture.

David,

Great and valid points within.

I think it is clear that the swap forum is NOT the reason people are here, however the real double edged sword is we are all here to discusss learn and study these wonderful weapons but think for a momnet, and yes there are many external avenues for commerce but without commerce be it here or anywhere else, there is no flow of product to follow. No product, nothing new, nothing new, no learning, no discussions. Please take it as a point context, not an absolute.
I'll take a back seat for a while and see what the broader community have to say as they are what makes this forum so fantastic to participate.

I look forward to seeing the questions I pose answered in time.

Gav

[fearn]

Hi Lew and all,

I think we've still got some contradictions here. Personally, I have bought a couple of things on the swap forum, and it is useful to have a price on there. However, that forum isn't a store, and I respect the people who only give out price info when contacted.

I also respect those who want to swap things. That leaves me out, because I have a small collection, and I would have to swap money for most of the things I see. In that sense, a desire to trade among friends is certainly exclusionary.

So we've got a couple of conflicting desires at play here, it seems.
--the moderators want less work, and this seems to be primarily the work of chasing down questionable dealers.
--the senior members want to trade with each other, potentially to the exclusion of newbies. A newbie can see what's being traded, but unless they have something of equal value, they can't obtain it. The long term problem with this approach is that the group needs to continually recruit new members in order to survive.
--Other people want to sell their pieces, either by posting them directly or by linking to their own sites.
--Rules such as in the keris forum kill the trade. Nice for moderators (less work), but not terribly useful for anyone else.

Obviously, the forum can't have all three characteristics.

I'd suggest two things:
1. Split off a swap forum. Create a place where money does not change hands and commercial activity is not tolerated. This will preserve the exchange that some members value, and the rules would be clear. Posts not following them would either be moved or deleted.
2. Have a buy/sell/trade forum for commerce. Caveat emptor should be the rule here, but potential purchasers should be free to comment (as a method of quality control). Actively malicious material should be removed, but otherwise, it would be more equivalent to the swap board of last year.

[kronckew]

as a moderator on a commercial security software firewall's user support forum, i am a bit more paranoid about revealing my mailing address or posting links on a searchable site that is open to bots and slurp spiders et al.

posting items and photos of my stuff and discussing them in the appropriate forums is one thing, but if i decide to sell, i'd sell somewhere i did not have to reveal personal details to the world that could compromise my location. it's not tough to find, but i don't go advertising myself either. for similar reasons i'd not want to post prices for my stuff that they could add up to see if it were worthwhile paying me a surprise visit some night. it should be a recommendation, not an absolute requirement.

i also see no reason to not post that an item is now up for auction on e-pray or other site, as long as it is obvious that the poster is a discussion member here and the item auctioned is indeed his, especially if he's advertised it here & no-one has jumped at it.

i have not as yet used the swap forum but am uneasy about 3 & 4. i would go along with them as recommendations, but not as absolutes.

something to prohibit posts until members have a certain number of posts in the discussion fora, to discourage dealers only using the swap/sale forum would also be appropriate. the mods here are smart enough to use their discretion in grey areas, if the rules are too tight, it removes their discretionary powers. in other words, let common sense apply.

i like the caveat emptor bit and am a firm believer in if it ain't broke don't fix it.

[Maurice]

Hi all,

I have seen a lot of ideas which I think would be great and very usable.
For instance that dealermembers could have a dealer designation on their avatar so that other members would know to look in their profile for their websites, which David pointed out (probably an idea from Gavin, if I understood well).

Also the splitting of the swap forum that Fearn pointed I think could be another good idea....

By the way, I deal a little besides my collecting, and all the money will be pumped in my own collection or other good genuine antique pointy things which will be sold or swapped.....And believe me, it is not very profitable (IF it is profitable at all). It takes a lot of work to maintain a website and the only pieces I have for sale once in a while are always pieces I like myself and most of the time have been (the one longer as the other) in my own collection....
Indeed some pieces go with a bit of a profit, but most of the pieces went to friendcollectors with swapping, or even with a great loss of money.....
There are also pieces I had obtained after a whole day driving to friendcollectors, and what is a euro50,- than for profit?? (Only to fill the fuel of my car is euro 8o,- that day, let alone the time I spent in trafficjam, and afterwards taking images, placing information and finally wrap them up and put them to the postoffice again)
So believe me when I am saying that a website is very time resuming (taking images, uploading, place the information etc. etc.) and I know that nobody is pushing me to do so....and it is my own free will.
But I am doing it because I like to learn, study and collect pieces. Also besides that I like to get in contact with collectors who have the same passion I have. Therefore I have my website, and also ofcourse to show my own collection, inclusive all information I have found out on the pieces.

The "dealers" that are posting in this thread, have a great heart for ethnographic swords, and also are always very helpfull to help other members.
Even, in my case, every member here on the forum is welcome to visit me when in The Netherlands...........and not for having a piece sold, but just to meet, shake hands, and talk about our mutual hobby...and I am sure other "dealers" have the same heart as me.
Ofcourse there are dealers who are very rude and sell crap, only to gain a lot of money....But I am sure the members who are a member for quite a time, can pick them out very easily...

I like the forum, and when not posting anymore in the swapdepartment as a dealer, so be it..
I leave that to the moderators, who are doing a great job.
But as Lee mentioned in the beginning of the thread: "Constructive comments and observations on the swap forum, on how it exists presently and how it may be improved, may be made as replies to this thread or may be privately communicated to the moderator of your choice."

So all comments should be seen in this way, and not to complain about moderators. Also some statements shouldn't be taken so literally, but with a grain of salt...

Kind Regards,
Maurice

[David]

Originally Posted by fearn

So we've got a couple of conflicting desires at play here, it seems.
--the moderators want less work, and this seems to be primarily the work of chasing down questionable dealers.
--the senior members want to trade with each other, potentially to the exclusion of newbies. A newbie can see what's being traded, but unless they have something of equal value, they can't obtain it. The long term problem with this approach is that the group needs to continually recruit new members in order to survive.
--Other people want to sell their pieces, either by posting them directly or by linking to their own sites.
--Rules such as in the keris forum kill the trade. Nice for moderators (less work), but not terribly useful for anyone else.

Firstly i take offense to your stance that this issue is all about creating less work for the moderators and your statement that the Keris Swap rules are fine for the moderators, but terrible for anybody else. You seem to have either not read or not understood what was behind the rules for the Keris Swap and you also seem to have lost sight of the fact that while a moderator i am also an avid collector who would love to be able to see collectors trade or sell off parts of their collection on the Keris Swap. What i didn't like were the constant games and attempts at rip-offs. I spend a great deal of my own freely given time here moderating discussion and sorting this stuff out, yet i guess you seem to feel that we mods owe you even more of our freely given time. Nice!
Also sorry that you have a chip on your shoulder in regards to the larger collections of senior members, but i don't think there is any kind of exclusionary club going on here. I am also pretty convinced that the large majority of items that are put up for swap most often end up being let go for a cash sum in private messaging dealings. This is why i think it is probably best for trader/sellers to place a cash value even if their initial intention is to trade. That would also give someone who is unclear of the value of an item an idea of what would be a worth piece to offer in exchange.
And believe me Fearn, that we have driven unsavory, dishonest dealers off the Keris Swap is in no way "terrible for everyone else". Unless it is your desire to purchase a countless array of contemporary keris artificially aged and presented as Mataram or Mojophahit weapons. Then you are obviously missing out on being ripped off. Sorry if we interfered with that.
If you spend anytime on the actual keris forum though you might find that the discussions there are alive and deeply informative. And any collector who wants to pass on a weapon through the swap can do so without much trouble and without paying the percentages required for eBay and other online auctions. I would be interested in knowing exactly what rules the Keris Swap has that are preventing sales from happening.

Originally Posted by fearn

Obviously, the forum can't have all three characteristics.

I'd suggest two things:
1. Split off a swap forum. Create a place where money does not change hands and commercial activity is not tolerated. This will preserve the exchange that some members value, and the rules would be clear. Posts not following them would either be moved or deleted.
2. Have a buy/sell/trade forum for commerce. Caveat emptor should be the rule here, but potential purchasers should be free to comment (as a method of quality control). Actively malicious material should be removed, but otherwise, it would be more equivalent to the swap board of last year.

A separate Swap Only forum would solve nothing since as i pointed out the majority of swaps turn into cash sales anyway.
As for point #2, how do we decide what is actively malicious material? Who amongst us is knowledgeable enough in all fields of weapons to judge whether a comment is correct or just a smear? Who wants to give even more of their time to trying to sort all that out? And as i recall there was a great deal of trouble on last year's swap board when someone made an inaccurate comment the killed a very big deal for one of our members. I don't recall the exact details, but i am sure someone can fill you in. I think it might have been Gavin's reputation that got unjustly smeared. Forgive me if i am wrong on that Gav. This is why we installed the policy of not permitting members to make any comments of items that are put up for swap.

[fearn]

Originally Posted by David

Firstly i take offense to your stance that this issue is all about creating less work for the moderators and your statement that the Keris Swap rules are fine for the moderators, but terrible for anybody else. You seem to have either not read or not understood what was behind the rules for the Keris Swap and you also seem to have lost sight of the fact that while a moderator i am also an avid collector who would love to be able to see collectors trade or sell off parts of their collection on the Keris Swap. What i didn't like were the constant games and attempts at rip-offs. I spend a great deal of my own freely given time here moderating discussion and sorting this stuff out, yet i guess you seem to feel that we mods owe you even more of our freely given time. Nice!

David,

No offense was intended, but I can't stop you from taking offense. Seriously.

If there's nothing wrong, then there's no reason to change the rules, right? And if you're spending a lot of your free time dealing with idiots like me, I think we can both agree that's a waste of your time.

You owe me nothing. However, I think your free time is valuable, if only to you, and that was the basis for my remark. You should not have to spend all your time policing this site. My assumption (perhaps a false one) was that one of the causes for the proposed rule change was that you were spending time moderating when you could better use it else.

Frank

[Mytribalworld]

Hi,

I must say that I appriciate the way this forum is once set up and its quite normal that from time to time you overvieuw the system and want to makes things better,renew etc. Also rules may change as time learns and collectors and ways to collect changes, no problem with that all.

Being collector and dealer in one I have always struggled with the question whats the part in me that collects and which part is the dealer? Its quite an unique job and still I haven't found an answer for it.

Commercial is a easy word but " we dealers" don't run a supermarket or photographer store, most dealers ( I don't know any dealer who doesn't collect) are collector themself. We are buying and selling mostly scarce objects and be sure finding, describing and selling cost a lot of time.
A lot of time is mostly invested in study as knowledge is a thing the dealer should have to select his objects. This forum has always been a great place to share info for both parties ( dealers,collectors)

I can be wrong in my interpretation but I have the feeling that there will come more space between the two with the new rules.
If its good for the forum the time will learn, we'll see.
I really hope course I think the intensions are well meant.

for me personal I don't think a link or not make any difference in selling results, but I prefer to have the freedom to do so.
( there are so much great links coming this year and I am sure you wouldn't miss them!

best regards and good luck with the forum!,

Arjan

[Lew]

Originally Posted by fearn

Hi Lew and all,




So we've got a couple of conflicting desires at play here, it seems.
--the moderators want less work, and this seems to be primarily the work of chasing down questionable dealers.
--the senior members want to trade with each other, potentially to the exclusion of newbies. A newbie can see what's being traded, but unless they have something of equal value, they can't obtain it. The long term problem with this approach is that the group needs to continually recruit new members in order to survive.
--Other people want to sell their pieces, either by posting them directly or by linking to their own sites.
--Rules such as in the keris forum kill the trade. Nice for moderators (less work), but not terribly useful for anyone else.

Obviously, the forum can't have all three characteristics.

I'd suggest two things:
1. Split off a swap forum. Create a place where money does not change hands and commercial activity is not tolerated. This will preserve the exchange that some members value, and the rules would be clear. Posts not following them would either be moved or deleted.
2. Have a buy/sell/trade forum for commerce. Caveat emptor should be the rule here, but potential purchasers should be free to comment (as a method of quality control). Actively malicious material should be removed, but otherwise, it would be more equivalent to the swap board of last year.

Sorry Fearn it is not a question of more work and this is a nonprofit forum none of the moderators are paid it is solely done on a volunteer basis and we do not sell space for advertising. So your point on needing new members to survive makes no sense. As far as newbies not being able to trade because they have small or no collections to offer for trade well that is one of the hurdles one must face when starting a hobby. How do you think we all started here? My dad did not leave me a collection I started with a kris and a barong and built up from there. Btw only about 1-5 percent of my collection was obtained through the swap on this forum all my other stuff was purchased via ebay,shows or through dealers websites.

[David]

Originally Posted by Lew

Sorry Fearn it is not a question of more work and this is a nonprofit forum none of the moderators are paid it is solely done on a volunteer basis and we do not sell space for advertising. So your point on needing new members to survive makes no sense.

Yeah, that comment baffled me as well. Maybe the Swap Forums need newbie collectors to survive, but the forums would remain strong places of discussion regardless of new membership. Not that new members are being discouraged. Fresh blood always has something new to offer. But long time members who like to trade with other members will always be able to do so and their collections will be constantly be growing from a myriad of other sources so there will always be new items to swap. No need to do any active recruiting. I don't think any of these "Senior Collectors" have built the bulk of their collection through our little swap forum. I have never bought or swapped a single thing in the Swap Forum, yet my collection keeps growing.
BTW, changes in the Swap are not being considered in order to drive the combination collector/dealer off the site. We have many collector/dealers here who are highly valuable, respected and active members.