Interesting Ottoman (?) Knife!

Jim McDougall · 9th July 2010, 08:46 PM

Very nice example you show there Chregu!
It seems agreed that the Spanish influence here is pronounced, and as I earlier noted, the openwork piercing in the center of the blade is a characteristic feature of the renowned work of edged weapons of Albacete in Southeast Spain.

I thought it would be interesting to look a little into what these cutout designs might represent. R.D.C. Evans describes the plug bayonets made there, many of which have this feature which he describes as a dumb bell shape. The punched or pierced holes in configuration are also a decorative feature seen on many of these weapons.

The edged weapon makers of Albacete have a very long standing tradition of many types of fine edged weapons, and of course many were intended for hunting, including the plug bayonet, which were used by Spain probably longer than anywhere else.

The bladed polearms used in hunting, especially boar hunting weapons, often utilized a crossbar or toggle past the end of the blade to prevent the animal from making its way up the shaft to the hunter. Many of these weapons had a pierced aperture to insert and remove the toggle, though it is unclear why one would want it to be removable, unless perhaps if the weapon would double in warfare.

Evans recounts some of the rather romanticized notions about the openings being to hold smeared poison, a rather nonsensical theory often proposed concerning many medieval daggers with pierced opening or slots. Since many of these apertures are fitted with brass inserts, there is even a suggestion of these openings being for hunters whistles?

In my opinion, these were simply a decorative feature that might be a vestigial reference to the pierced openings for hunting toggles on the polearms that may have been produced in Albacete along with other edged weapons. Perhaps the shape was to allow insertion of a crossbar with this type cross section. Just a theory, and would of course like to hear other opinions. It does seem that a center steeped in the tradition of Albacete, that such a trademark feature might well be emplaced.

Whatever the case, it seems more established that these extremely attractive knives were probably produced in Spanish Morocco, carrying the traditions of Albacete in thier motif.

All best regards,
Jim

****finis******

A. G. Maisey · 13th July 2010, 12:47 AM

Jim, what this Bosnian gentleman had was a set of six matched knives and forks which he said dated from about 1930. He also had two or three small general purpose knives. The cutlery had plain blades, the one of GP knives had some simple blade engraving similar to what I can see on this blade here discussed.

The handles on all the pieces --- knives, forks, GP knives -- were all of exactly the same style as I see here, that is they were horn, planar, curled pommel, inlaid in the same design and style. On one of the GP knives the curled pommel had been given the shape of (I think) a bird's head.

In short, they looked extremely similar to what I see here, but none had blade piercing.

As you know, this sort of thing is not my field, even though I have collected edged weaponry other than keris during the entire period I have had an interest in keris. I am not in any way attempting to convince anybody that the knife pictured here is Bosnian, quite frankly it is of very little interest to me where it might come from. I am only providing the information that I have seen pieces that bear a very close resemblance to this knife that were identified as Bosnian by a person from Bosnia.

Jim McDougall · 13th July 2010, 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Jim, what this Bosnian gentleman had was a set of six matched knives and forks which he said dated from about 1930. He also had two or three small general purpose knives. The cutlery had plain blades, the one of GP knives had some simple blade engraving similar to what I can see on this blade here discussed.

The handles on all the pieces --- knives, forks, GP knives -- were all of exactly the same style as I see here, that is they were horn, planar, curled pommel, inlaid in the same design and style. On one of the GP knives the curled pommel had been given the shape of (I think) a bird's head.

In short, they looked extremely similar to what I see here, but none had blade piercing.

As you know, this sort of thing is not my field, even though I have collected edged weaponry other than keris during the entire period I have had an interest in keris. I am not in any way attempting to convince anybody that the knife pictured here is Bosnian, quite frankly it is of very little interest to me where it might come from. I am only providing the information that I have seen pieces that bear a very close resemblance to this knife that were identified as Bosnian by a person from Bosnia.

Hi Alan,
Thank you for responding to my question, and I knew you were providing the information as evidential for perspective on assessment on this hilt style.
The reason I asked about the openwork was of course to determine if either other regions had adopted similar openwork via trade contacts, or perhaps if the knives might have been misidentified by the informant.
I very much appreciate the input, and always consider all information as important in comprehensive research on any weapon. It often amazes me how many key clues have turned up in the most unusual context, and as often as not , far outside the fields where I have been searching.
Your experience and knowledge is in no way confined to a single field, no matter what you say

!!! and thank you for always sharing.

All the very best,
Jim

9th July 2010, 08:46 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,191	Very nice example you show there Chregu! It seems agreed that the Spanish influence here is pronounced, and as I earlier noted, the openwork piercing in the center of the blade is a characteristic feature of the renowned work of edged weapons of Albacete in Southeast Spain. I thought it would be interesting to look a little into what these cutout designs might represent. R.D.C. Evans describes the plug bayonets made there, many of which have this feature which he describes as a dumb bell shape. The punched or pierced holes in configuration are also a decorative feature seen on many of these weapons. The edged weapon makers of Albacete have a very long standing tradition of many types of fine edged weapons, and of course many were intended for hunting, including the plug bayonet, which were used by Spain probably longer than anywhere else. The bladed polearms used in hunting, especially boar hunting weapons, often utilized a crossbar or toggle past the end of the blade to prevent the animal from making its way up the shaft to the hunter. Many of these weapons had a pierced aperture to insert and remove the toggle, though it is unclear why one would want it to be removable, unless perhaps if the weapon would double in warfare. Evans recounts some of the rather romanticized notions about the openings being to hold smeared poison, a rather nonsensical theory often proposed concerning many medieval daggers with pierced opening or slots. Since many of these apertures are fitted with brass inserts, there is even a suggestion of these openings being for hunters whistles? In my opinion, these were simply a decorative feature that might be a vestigial reference to the pierced openings for hunting toggles on the polearms that may have been produced in Albacete along with other edged weapons. Perhaps the shape was to allow insertion of a crossbar with this type cross section. Just a theory, and would of course like to hear other opinions. It does seem that a center steeped in the tradition of Albacete, that such a trademark feature might well be emplaced. Whatever the case, it seems more established that these extremely attractive knives were probably produced in Spanish Morocco, carrying the traditions of Albacete in thier motif. All best regards, Jim **finis**** Last edited by Jim McDougall; 10th July 2010 at 06:07 PM.

13th July 2010, 12:47 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Jim, what this Bosnian gentleman had was a set of six matched knives and forks which he said dated from about 1930. He also had two or three small general purpose knives. The cutlery had plain blades, the one of GP knives had some simple blade engraving similar to what I can see on this blade here discussed. The handles on all the pieces --- knives, forks, GP knives -- were all of exactly the same style as I see here, that is they were horn, planar, curled pommel, inlaid in the same design and style. On one of the GP knives the curled pommel had been given the shape of (I think) a bird's head. In short, they looked extremely similar to what I see here, but none had blade piercing. As you know, this sort of thing is not my field, even though I have collected edged weaponry other than keris during the entire period I have had an interest in keris. I am not in any way attempting to convince anybody that the knife pictured here is Bosnian, quite frankly it is of very little interest to me where it might come from. I am only providing the information that I have seen pieces that bear a very close resemblance to this knife that were identified as Bosnian by a person from Bosnia.