A Beautiful Mid-14th Century Handgonne

Matchlock · 5th July 2010, 07:26 PM

Hi 'Nando and welcome, sweet lovely Rita!

Thank you so much for taking care of that little smooth as silk lady. Hers is certainly the most beautiful and heart warming picture I've ever seen on the forum ...
I'm sure she is in the best of hands with you and your Vet daughter!

Thanks again and best,
Michl

Matchlock · 5th July 2010, 10:12 PM

The first Steinbüchse most probably Swiss, ca. 1420-30 (dating criteria: various reinforcement rings, large touchhole, and the cross of Switzerland - cross of Saint George - struck near the muzzle), sold Sotheby's London, Dec 8, 1988, Lot 276, for GBP 5,000. Length overall 34.2 cm, barrel (Flug) 11,3 cm long, bore ca. 6 cm, breech length 22.9 cm. The ring was clearly for suspension purposes but all kinds of speculations are allowed. Please see catalog description attached.

Please note the punched decoration of circles in the wrought iron surface; you will find almost the same arrangement on the breech of a similar but somewhat bigger Steinbüchse to be posted here soon.

Please also note the second to last illustration of a mounted knightly king firing a tiller handgun with various balls leaving the muzzle (ca. 1440)! We know of other instances in contemporary illuminated manuscripts illustrating the same phenomenon of either several caliber fitting balls or a larger amount of shot being fired from mid-14th to early-15th centrury handgonnes. That makes sense because the relatively short barrels were not apt to fire with the exactitude required.

Last not least please note the earliest small rectangularly bent igniting irons of that period of time. As I stated before, there is only one single specimen of that characteristic form known to have survived, and it is in my collection; see last attachment, the upperrmost of four.

To be cont'd ...

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 6th July 2010, 05:06 PM

Attached, among more historical sources of illustration, please find some pictures of earliest balls for handgonnes from my collection, comprising one singular stone ball, diameter ca. 3.6 cm, bearing an old paper strip stating that this ball was found while plowing a field near Regensburg in 1879. The others are of iron or heavily oxidized lead, some consist of cast iron and are covered by a thick layer of lead (probably to save the inner walls of bronze of brass barrels from abrasion), and one is even of brass.

One of the two bigger stone balls was for a larger piece of ordnance, the other being a stone hand grenade with a fuse of some sort of dried grass, the inner tube filled with a mixture of powder and adhesive the burning time of which must have been defined. Thus the thing could be ignited and just dropped from the wall to explode among the raiders below.

Best,
Michael

Spiridonov · 6th July 2010, 05:34 PM

Thanks! Have attantion, the person hold the loading beaker in his hand

Spiridonov · 6th July 2010, 06:20 PM

Michael, do you have X-rays of any handgonnes?

Matchlock · 6th July 2010, 06:34 PM

First more of the two stone balls and the stone hand grenade in my collection.

Next a small stone gun (German Steinbüchse) retaining its original oaken carriage (German Lafette); the wood, on the basis of the South German oak chronology, is datable to ca. 1460 or later - who would have assumed such a comparatively 'late' date?! Note the fixation by means of two iron clamps which is also shown on contemporary illustrations. This type of carriage, as seen in several 15th sentury documents, was originally fixed pivotable on a large round wooden base which sometimes even had a quadrant for more exact adjustment (see following posts).

This Steinbüchse, preserved in The Museum of Weißenburg, Bavaria, measures 61.3 cm overall, barrel length 31.6 cm overall, length of ball chamber (Flug) 26.0 cm, caliber at muzzle 5.6 cm, narrowing to the rear.

m

Matchlock · 6th July 2010, 07:19 PM

More:

The upper three, including a sectional drawing, of two Steinbüchsen in the Historic Museum Berne, Switzerland; the carriages are late 19th century replacements when these pieces were still in the famous collection of Robert Forrer who then handed everything down to the Museum, which 'gratefully' has not been exhibiting anything since WW II.

Alexander, I am afraid that have no X-radiography of such handgonnes but I do hope the sectional drawing and detailed photography will do. I some of the photos you can even see the banded iron coming off in thin layers as a consequence or rust and the great age of these pieces.

Now on it goes with the beautiful and completely preserved Weißenburg gun.
Note the fixation of the barrel by two pivoted iron clamps which can also be seen in early 15th century illustrations attached.
Please also note that the touchhole is larger now and has moved definitely forward of the rear end of the breech - also a criterion for dating the piece to the second half of the 15th century. Please bear in mind that there usually is a remarkable delay in the development of time-proven forms and techniques in rural areas as compared with the big leading city centers.

m

Spiridonov · 6th July 2010, 07:34 PM

The touch hole of last gun is too wide. How to explane it?
By the way about the manual weapon i have a theory (I will wright it later)
But i have not explanation for this case.
p/s
Michael, please look at your privat messege (i have some x-rays of bombards)

Matchlock · 6th July 2010, 07:37 PM

The rest of the Weißenburg Steinbüchse.

Of course, due to its relatively late date of manufacture, the barrel is no longer wrought of band iron. You will even see the forging lap on the inner barrel wall where I put cold light into it.

Did you notice the traces of original red minium paint (Mennige)?

Also, the punched circles over the breech remind of the almost identical decoration on the Sotheby's stone gun (cf. b/w photos above)!

Alexander, as I have tried to explain before, the 'younger' the barrel is, the larger is the touchhole. The largest touchholes occur on guns around 1500 - please cf. my earlier posts on haquebut barrel from my collection. After that turn of the century - and with the end of the Middle Ages and the beginning of the Renaissance - touchholes tend to become notably smaller once again.

Now, and on thinking twice, the Sotheby's Swiss Steinbüchse could even be as late as the second half of the 15th century when measured by its large touchhole, and considering the long and traditional Swis way of keeping oblique styles. On the other hand, the piece might well be ca. 1430 and the touchhole just burnt out or was widened during its later working time.

That's one of the points when I wish there would be more input from my fellow members!!!

Best,
Michael

Matchlock · 6th July 2010, 09:52 PM

This is preserved at the Fortress (Veste) of Hohensalzburg, Austria, and like the Weißenburg gun it too retains its original oaken stock to which the wrought iron barrel is attached by three fixed iron bands.

The round, staged barrel features a smaller breech and a notably wider ball chamber (Flug).

Although I took a lot of photos of it back in the 80's I sadly do not have any ecxact measurements but I estimate its data to nearly the same as those of the Weißenburg Steinbüchse: ca. 65 cm overall, barrel ca. 28 cm, bore ca. 8 cm.

The touchhole is still rather small and not too far off the rear barrel end, the caliber is already rather big for a manually operated piece and the barrel is already wrought of one piece around an iron bolt and fire-welded together. This latter part of the inner barrel is seen in the pics. A dating of early 15th century (ca. 1410-20) would therefore seem quite right but mid-15th c. is also possible.

It too was doubtlessly mounted pivotable and adjustable on a heavy wooden base.

What's highly interesting is the iron tongue of a longitudinal band nailed to and sticking out from the underside of the carriage. I guess it must have had some function either in connexion with the (missing) wooden base or with the loading process. The rest of such a tongue seems to be present on the Weißenburg Steinbüchse as well. Mabye it just acted as a sort of grip when adjusting the piece or revolving it on the socket.
Anyway, I once had an idea that might have presented a solution but sadly can't seem to remember. Must study the contemporary illustrations - and hope for your brain storming, of course!

Best,
Michael

5th July 2010, 10:12 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	More stone handgonnes (Steinbüchsen) and their sources of illustration, ca. 1400-1430 The first Steinbüchse most probably Swiss, ca. 1420-30 (dating criteria: various reinforcement rings, large touchhole, and the cross of Switzerland - cross of Saint George - struck near the muzzle), sold Sotheby's London, Dec 8, 1988, Lot 276, for GBP 5,000. Length overall 34.2 cm, barrel (Flug) 11,3 cm long, bore ca. 6 cm, breech length 22.9 cm. The ring was clearly for suspension purposes but all kinds of speculations are allowed. Please see catalog description attached. Please note the punched decoration of circles in the wrought iron surface; you will find almost the same arrangement on the breech of a similar but somewhat bigger Steinbüchse to be posted here soon. Please also note the second to last illustration of a mounted knightly king firing a tiller handgun with various balls leaving the muzzle (ca. 1440)! We know of other instances in contemporary illuminated manuscripts illustrating the same phenomenon of either several caliber fitting balls or a larger amount of shot being fired from mid-14th to early-15th centrury handgonnes. That makes sense because the relatively short barrels were not apt to fire with the exactitude required. Last not least please note the earliest small rectangularly bent igniting irons of that period of time. As I stated before, there is only one single specimen of that characteristic form known to have survived, and it is in my collection; see last attachment, the upperrmost of four. To be cont'd ... Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 6th July 2010 at 03:12 PM.

6th July 2010, 05:06 PM	#3
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Single balls and shot as earliest ammunition Attached, among more historical sources of illustration, please find some pictures of earliest balls for handgonnes from my collection, comprising one singular stone ball, diameter ca. 3.6 cm, bearing an old paper strip stating that this ball was found while plowing a field near Regensburg in 1879. The others are of iron or heavily oxidized lead, some consist of cast iron and are covered by a thick layer of lead (probably to save the inner walls of bronze of brass barrels from abrasion), and one is even of brass. One of the two bigger stone balls was for a larger piece of ordnance, the other being a stone hand grenade with a fuse of some sort of dried grass, the inner tube filled with a mixture of powder and adhesive the burning time of which must have been defined. Thus the thing could be ignited and just dropped from the wall to explode among the raiders below. Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 6th July 2010 at 05:24 PM.

6th July 2010, 06:34 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	First more of the two stone balls and the stone hand grenade in my collection. Next a small stone gun (German Steinbüchse) retaining its original oaken carriage (German Lafette); the wood, on the basis of the South German oak chronology, is datable to ca. 1460 or later - who would have assumed such a comparatively 'late' date?! Note the fixation by means of two iron clamps which is also shown on contemporary illustrations. This type of carriage, as seen in several 15th sentury documents, was originally fixed pivotable on a large round wooden base which sometimes even had a quadrant for more exact adjustment (see following posts). This Steinbüchse, preserved in The Museum of Weißenburg, Bavaria, measures 61.3 cm overall, barrel length 31.6 cm overall, length of ball chamber (Flug) 26.0 cm, caliber at muzzle 5.6 cm, narrowing to the rear. m Attached Images

6th July 2010, 07:19 PM	#7
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	More: The upper three, including a sectional drawing, of two Steinbüchsen in the Historic Museum Berne, Switzerland; the carriages are late 19th century replacements when these pieces were still in the famous collection of Robert Forrer who then handed everything down to the Museum, which 'gratefully' has not been exhibiting anything since WW II. Alexander, I am afraid that have no X-radiography of such handgonnes but I do hope the sectional drawing and detailed photography will do. I some of the photos you can even see the banded iron coming off in thin layers as a consequence or rust and the great age of these pieces. Now on it goes with the beautiful and completely preserved Weißenburg gun. Note the fixation of the barrel by two pivoted iron clamps which can also be seen in early 15th century illustrations attached. Please also note that the touchhole is larger now and has moved definitely forward of the rear end of the breech - also a criterion for dating the piece to the second half of the 15th century. Please bear in mind that there usually is a remarkable delay in the development of time-proven forms and techniques in rural areas as compared with the big leading city centers. m Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 6th July 2010 at 07:30 PM.

6th July 2010, 07:37 PM	#9
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	The rest of the Weißenburg Steinbüchse. Of course, due to its relatively late date of manufacture, the barrel is no longer wrought of band iron. You will even see the forging lap on the inner barrel wall where I put cold light into it. Did you notice the traces of original red minium paint (Mennige)? Also, the punched circles over the breech remind of the almost identical decoration on the Sotheby's stone gun (cf. b/w photos above)! Alexander, as I have tried to explain before, the 'younger' the barrel is, the larger is the touchhole. The largest touchholes occur on guns around 1500 - please cf. my earlier posts on haquebut barrel from my collection. After that turn of the century - and with the end of the Middle Ages and the beginning of the Renaissance - touchholes tend to become notably smaller once again. Now, and on thinking twice, the Sotheby's Swiss Steinbüchse could even be as late as the second half of the 15th century when measured by its large touchhole, and considering the long and traditional Swis way of keeping oblique styles. On the other hand, the piece might well be ca. 1430 and the touchhole just burnt out or was widened during its later working time. That's one of the points when I wish there would be more input from my fellow members!!! Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 6th July 2010 at 08:26 PM.

5th July 2010, 07:26 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Hi 'Nando and welcome, sweet lovely Rita! Thank you so much for taking care of that little smooth as silk lady. Hers is certainly the most beautiful and heart warming picture I've ever seen on the forum ... I'm sure she is in the best of hands with you and your Vet daughter! Thanks again and best, Michl

6th July 2010, 05:34 PM	#4
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	Thanks! Have attantion, the person hold the loading beaker in his hand

6th July 2010, 06:20 PM	#5
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	Michael, do you have X-rays of any handgonnes?

6th July 2010, 07:34 PM	#8
Spiridonov Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Russia, Leningrad Posts: 355	The touch hole of last gun is too wide. How to explane it? By the way about the manual weapon i have a theory (I will wright it later) But i have not explanation for this case. p/s Michael, please look at your privat messege (i have some x-rays of bombards)

6th July 2010, 09:52 PM	#10
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Another fine and completely preserved Steinbüchse in Salzburg This is preserved at the Fortress (Veste) of Hohensalzburg, Austria, and like the Weißenburg gun it too retains its original oaken stock to which the wrought iron barrel is attached by three fixed iron bands. The round, staged barrel features a smaller breech and a notably wider ball chamber (Flug). Although I took a lot of photos of it back in the 80's I sadly do not have any ecxact measurements but I estimate its data to nearly the same as those of the Weißenburg Steinbüchse: ca. 65 cm overall, barrel ca. 28 cm, bore ca. 8 cm. The touchhole is still rather small and not too far off the rear barrel end, the caliber is already rather big for a manually operated piece and the barrel is already wrought of one piece around an iron bolt and fire-welded together. This latter part of the inner barrel is seen in the pics. A dating of early 15th century (ca. 1410-20) would therefore seem quite right but mid-15th c. is also possible. It too was doubtlessly mounted pivotable and adjustable on a heavy wooden base. What's highly interesting is the iron tongue of a longitudinal band nailed to and sticking out from the underside of the carriage. I guess it must have had some function either in connexion with the (missing) wooden base or with the loading process. The rest of such a tongue seems to be present on the Weißenburg Steinbüchse as well. Mabye it just acted as a sort of grip when adjusting the piece or revolving it on the socket. Anyway, I once had an idea that might have presented a solution but sadly can't seem to remember. Must study the contemporary illustrations - and hope for your brain storming, of course! Best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 6th July 2010 at 11:05 PM.