Putting together a museum exhibit linking Java keris to Philippine kris

[tom hyle]

Kris tang is not weak. It is very sufficient to its purpose as a serious and deadly weapon, as in fact, and possibly at an earlier date than in Europe, an expression of what Burton called the Modern Sword; the sword for thrusting, cutting, and parrying. When you use a kris properly to fight no stress accrues across the tang, only along it. All cuts all thrusts all parries distribute the force along the tang when properly done. This is true in proper design and use of most swords worldwide, but kris is reall an epitome.
Not a weapon? What a weapon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tom hyle]

Oh, and please don'e ignore the Bugis. The Bugi kris is more like the Bali kris. Balinese are of native religion, not Moslems; their kris, their culture, is IMHO more "true" to the region. Is it more true to teh form? I dunno, but I gotta wonder.

[tunggulametung]

First of I think thread starter need to decide which area will be covered, the time frame and what weapon to include. From there on that will be more easy to move forward with description, photos, including putting a title to the exhibition.

Maybe you can limit by preparing a questions like:
1. Exclusive to Java & Southern Philippines or more area? (the more area the more work to do)
2. Ancient time to 50 years ago or up to recent time?
3. Exclusive to Javanese & Philippines Keris or to include other weapon? (the more weapon the more to do)
4. .... expand this as required

I also want to suggest that it is better to avoid complex description to present this to the general public. For example no need to name keris parts in the original language, like it is wise calling "metal overseath" rather than "pendok". You can surely prepare a diagram of keris parts to explain it further or even suggest a list of reading (book title) for those who wish to know more.

For keris, I think it is nice to include a map of distribution like one in Jensen's Krisdisk attached.

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As for keris and kris it's like football and soccer. I too have a question in mind why the Philippines kris needs to be saperated from their other brother, even to their closest cousin the Malay sundang. The modern area where it's agreed now is merely a colonial product. If it's just to differentiate, we can attribute the suggested origin like Moro kris, Sulu kris, Malay kris, Borneo kris, Javanese kris etc. I believe it's okay to call Kris or Keris according to one preference.

[tom hyle]

well said

[Bill M]

Tom, I did not mean to malign the Indonesian kris as a weapon, more to contrast it with the Moro. The Indonesian tang is small diameter and not usually well-fixed to the handle as compared to the PI / Moro kris.

This is because the handle of an Indonesian keris is made to be removed easily. I don't agree that these two weapons are anywhere near equal in a fight.

If you were in a sword fight, which one would you choose?

As far as the keris/kris question, I consider it a matter of convenience to identify the style of an Indonesian keris to the style of a Moro.

The Buginese keris are also important. My focus needs to revolve around what I have. FI I have two Buginese, while I have 62 Javanese and 23 Balinese. I also have a very few other keris.

Moro and environs, I have 71 kris. I mention these numbers to say that I have substantially more to choose from for this display. The museum patrons have never seen a keris/kris before. Don't want to confuse them with a lot of other keris styles. Big Picture.

Simple. Not going into specifics or pamor or dapor either. Just a comment or so about how a student might want a certain pattern while a merchant or military man might want a different pattern.

A few other weapons and working blades in a case with basic descriptions.


tunggulametung,
Right on with your questions and thank you so much for the diagram you posted.

As far as nomenclature, I may be best to stay with "Handle" and "scabbard" with a diagram showing native language of more specific parts for those viewers who might have an interest. Less confusing.

[tom hyle]

hmmmm....
The Indonesian kris tang is not well fixed in its handle because its current use in its culture is somewhat vestigial/ceremonial this does not comment on its use in older times. The connection is regularly updated; one almost never encounters and 18th C kris that hasn't been dressed and undressed many times, and yes, for the last 50 or 100 years with little concern for combat. This says nothing about the original mounting.
I am 5'8" 220# A malay is up to my nipple. I would in a fight prefer a sword of proper size to me. In sword using cultures swords are typically made to fit the user. This is not the only issue, of course (Moro Malays are also to my nipple in height, of course) but just to mention on thing you're not considering.
Consider that convenience and accuracy are often incompatible, re kris/keris.
I suggest at lest on Bugi kris, at least one Bali kris, at least one gunong, at least one "tempius" at least one matulis. What would be super cool is a Visayan (mounted) kris sundang. I bet some forum members might even loan you a piece or two if they can be properly assured the System won't try to steal them.
Using English terminology when speaking with English speakers is definitely best; I agree.

[apolaki]

Hello Mr. Tom Hyle,

I don't understand why you are referring to them as Moro malays because they are Filipino.

[Amuk Murugul]

Originally Posted by apolaki

Hello Mr. Tom Hyle,

I don't understand why you are referring to them as Moro malays because they are Filipino.

Hullo everybody

.....hmmm.... I think he is referring to their ethnic grouping, rather than their nationality. Anyway, questions on nationality would best be put to the tribes (both Muslim and non-Muslim) who now reluctantly embrace the 'Moro' label as this is a more recognizable term on the global stage, thereby increasing the chances of success in their aspirations.
Furthermore, not all Philippines tribes are of Malay stock.

Best,

[fernando]

Portuguese touched Jawa for the first time in 1512, after taking over Malaca.

We can read comments about local weapons, by period chroniclers:
(Strict translation)
Every Jaoa man, be him rich or poor, will have in his house cris and lance and dagger.
(Tomé Pires 1465-1524 or 40).

The crises (plural for cris) serve them as daggers serve for us; they bring scimitars like the Turks.
(Castanheda 1500-1559).

Concerning races:
(period terminology)
There were in Jawa gentiles and moors; the first inhabited the bush, the late inhabited the coast.
(Duarte Barbosa - 1521, among others).

From the XVI century Portuguese codice kept at Casanatence library, we can see in one of the famous water colours, that the peoples of the Kingdom of Jawa (Jaoa) were called Jaos (at least) by the portuguese.

Fernando

.

[tom hyle]

Every man of them in his house, yes, but that didn't mean, for instance, slaves, who I don't think could even dare touch a cris Unless kriss (my actual preferred spelling which I usually keep to my self) was not yet seen as holy at that time? Which I hardly suspect. Note the orientation of the handle in the picture. What does this backward orientation mean in modern times? Peace, I think.?.... Do I digress?
Has everyone read that parang ihlang thread? Super duper wow!!!
BTW re other Moro weapons CharlesS' latest comment/speculation about my pira is exactly spot-on correct and an impressive bit of photo analysis.
I can;'t reply; I can only edit; you believe whatever about where it came frrom; I reiterate I have no interest in convincing you; none at all; I have no particular belief on the origin of the kris; I objectively point out it is nhot a settloed matter. It is a mystery.
Where do I get my ideas? Natives, long-term foreigners/inmigrants to the region, swords, scholars, collectors, makers, books, internet, God. How about you?
And a slave is nbot a common man, nor may be some types oif holy men, unholy men, foreigners, etc......I don't think a slave was to carry a kris; do you? A knife, yes (a slave without a knife isn't much use to his master); a dagger or sword under at least some circumstances and tribes, but a kriss? Do you think so? What's your evidence?