Baskethilt

fernando · 7th June 2005, 08:32 PM

Hi Jeff D.
i like your piece!
intriguing inscription ... looks like its missing a part, though !
i'll explain: when you have this type of wording, you either wish to express " viva portugal" or "viva el rei x de portugal". the term "de" means "of", it only fits in the second statement. you are either long living the country or the king of the country. isn't there another wording on the other side, to adjust the phrase, even with an od composition? or is this sword a short piece, like a left hander, only with space for condensing the actual statement, figuring in full in the larger matching sword ? funny idea !
its really intriguing, at least for my humble knowledge, although i was already familiar with this type of inscriptions but i'll keep thinking about it ... while you please answer my above little questions, hoping i made myself clear.
kind regards

Jeff D · 8th June 2005, 01:09 AM

Hi Fernando,

Thanks for the references as well as the information on my other sword. Both sides have the same inscription "Viva de Portugal" with the usual orb and cross symbols?

Thanks for the information!
Jeff

Jim McDougall · 8th June 2005, 02:11 AM

Hi Fernando,
Thank you very much for the link to the Masonic site which is most interesting and in rechecking data on this subject did find the 'Spanish motto' mentioned on a Mexican American War era sword used as a Tylers sword in a lodge in Texas. We have noted before in discussion that this motto occurred on many Spanish colonial blades of the latter 18th to early 19th centuries, and these often found use on early espada anchas, of this same period. It seemed quite appropriate that a sword carrying this motto on its blade found use as a key item of regalia in this Masonic lodge.

What is most intriguing is just how early was this 'motto' used, and your note on a book with a Spanish sword of late XVI century seems to illustrate earlier use than I had been aware of. Could you possibly say more on the books title and author? If possible post the illustration ?

We know that many arcane,occult and astrological symbols became important in the symbolism of Freemasonry, and the sun and moon were components in this as well as alchemical and other occult allegory. It is uncertain exactly how early these symbols were used as described in Masonic literature, or as far as I am aware, the wordings of particular oaths used in Knights Templars ceremony. It does seem very plausible that a similarly worded oath or motto might have derived from such Templars dogma, and quite possibly may have carried forth in the Spanish military orders. If that was indeed the case it would be wonderful to be able to define and support that lineage for the motto.

I really appreciate your excellent input and bringing in the very pertinant Masonic associations here, and hope you will add more.

All the very best,
Jim

Andrew · 8th June 2005, 02:57 AM

Outstanding discussion, gentlemen. I'm enjoying this thread immensely.

Rivkin · 9th June 2005, 04:52 AM

I'm not the one to say anything about Masons, but just to make sure - afaik there is no possibility of this motto/motiff etc. been connected to anything cabbalistic. Strangely so I did actually see a "cabbalistic", an extremely high quality sword on ebay once.

It's probably better to say that any cabbalistic connection would have to be in a nth degree of remotness.

fernando · 9th June 2005, 07:53 PM

these are digital pictures of both little book and mentioned sword ( my scanner is broken ).
i wouldn't presume to cover such a complex theme like masonry and their self pretended connection to the templars, with all that implies. just remember that the cruzades saga generated the order of "poor knigths of christ"( 1128 ), after named "knights of the temple" ( templars ). when the pope clemente V banned the order in all countries in 1312, the portuguese king dom diniz, considering their achieved strenght, traded some trick with the pope and ended up keeping them, by renaming them "order of christ". this was a long shot, as this religious military order, headed by the best blood of portuguese nobles, like prince henry the navigator, were in the origin of the discoveries period, as from the XY century. the cross engraved in Jeff D sword must be the "cruz de cristo" ( christ cross ), a symbol brought from the templars gowns to the sails and armoury of the discovery soldiers.
whether the masonics descend and cultivate some of all the templars knowledge, be it intrinsecal, esoteric, you name it, is something that transcends me. some even say that templars still exist. i find this type of values, assumed by whomever, seven hundred years ago, only plausible if performed by history.
not to provoke a bottomless well, i'll stick to the little part of trying to find out the missing link in the swords motto engraving "no me saques ...", even a possible portuguese version of the text.
there are inumerous pages on this theme over here ... there must be some track.
sorry to be such a bore.

fernando · 9th June 2005, 07:58 PM

sorry, forgot to upload.
NO, IT WAS THE SIZE.

fernando · 9th June 2005, 10:30 PM

hi Jeff
is that sword the real thing? are we talking XVI century here? sorry for my ignorance.
but let's see: the cross ( no picture ) must be what i mentioned in the templar/masonic theme. the orb, most possibly the armilary orb ( esfera armilar ) was king dom manuel symbol ( 1495-1521 ).
he had it in all the country castle doors and in the armoury of the forces he sent out aboard the first long route discovery ships. eventualy both his orb and the templar cross appeared together in arms, armour, flags and i think sails of the time.the word portugal in "viva de portugal" must be portvgal, if you look better at the blade. the v for an u was dropped from the portuguese ( and castilian ... ) "just the other day". but the wording still doesn't make sense as a phrase. something is abnormal here.
i have picture of a 1642 portuguese extendeable blade rapier ( to ilude the blade length allowance ) quoted to have inscribed " viva el rey de portugael ". this pattern went on for a couple centuries, with and without the name of the king. in another picture, and with all the doubts for my non skilled eye, i see a sword similar to yours, named as a "combat (european ) sword of the second quarter XVI century", a beautyfull and emblematic portuguese specimen.
being genuine, your sword is not invalueable, but on the way to that.
keep well

fernando · 9th June 2005, 11:36 PM

how about this ?
http://www.arscives.com/cejunior/portarmour/007.htm

8th June 2005, 01:09 AM	#2
Jeff D Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: B.C. Canada Posts: 473	Hi Fernando, Thanks for the references as well as the information on my other sword. Both sides have the same inscription "Viva de Portugal" with the usual orb and cross symbols? Thanks for the information! Jeff Attached Images

9th June 2005, 07:58 PM	#7
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	sorry, forgot to upload. NO, IT WAS THE SIZE. Attached Images Last edited by fernando; 9th June 2005 at 08:28 PM.

7th June 2005, 08:32 PM	#1
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi Jeff D. i like your piece! intriguing inscription ... looks like its missing a part, though ! i'll explain: when you have this type of wording, you either wish to express " viva portugal" or "viva el rei x de portugal". the term "de" means "of", it only fits in the second statement. you are either long living the country or the king of the country. isn't there another wording on the other side, to adjust the phrase, even with an od composition? or is this sword a short piece, like a left hander, only with space for condensing the actual statement, figuring in full in the larger matching sword ? funny idea ! its really intriguing, at least for my humble knowledge, although i was already familiar with this type of inscriptions but i'll keep thinking about it ... while you please answer my above little questions, hoping i made myself clear. kind regards

8th June 2005, 02:11 AM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,445	Hi Fernando, Thank you very much for the link to the Masonic site which is most interesting and in rechecking data on this subject did find the 'Spanish motto' mentioned on a Mexican American War era sword used as a Tylers sword in a lodge in Texas. We have noted before in discussion that this motto occurred on many Spanish colonial blades of the latter 18th to early 19th centuries, and these often found use on early espada anchas, of this same period. It seemed quite appropriate that a sword carrying this motto on its blade found use as a key item of regalia in this Masonic lodge. What is most intriguing is just how early was this 'motto' used, and your note on a book with a Spanish sword of late XVI century seems to illustrate earlier use than I had been aware of. Could you possibly say more on the books title and author? If possible post the illustration ? We know that many arcane,occult and astrological symbols became important in the symbolism of Freemasonry, and the sun and moon were components in this as well as alchemical and other occult allegory. It is uncertain exactly how early these symbols were used as described in Masonic literature, or as far as I am aware, the wordings of particular oaths used in Knights Templars ceremony. It does seem very plausible that a similarly worded oath or motto might have derived from such Templars dogma, and quite possibly may have carried forth in the Spanish military orders. If that was indeed the case it would be wonderful to be able to define and support that lineage for the motto. I really appreciate your excellent input and bringing in the very pertinant Masonic associations here, and hope you will add more. All the very best, Jim

8th June 2005, 02:57 AM	#4
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Outstanding discussion, gentlemen. I'm enjoying this thread immensely.

9th June 2005, 04:52 AM	#5
Rivkin Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 655	I'm not the one to say anything about Masons, but just to make sure - afaik there is no possibility of this motto/motiff etc. been connected to anything cabbalistic. Strangely so I did actually see a "cabbalistic", an extremely high quality sword on ebay once. It's probably better to say that any cabbalistic connection would have to be in a nth degree of remotness.

9th June 2005, 07:53 PM	#6
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	these are digital pictures of both little book and mentioned sword ( my scanner is broken ). i wouldn't presume to cover such a complex theme like masonry and their self pretended connection to the templars, with all that implies. just remember that the cruzades saga generated the order of "poor knigths of christ"( 1128 ), after named "knights of the temple" ( templars ). when the pope clemente V banned the order in all countries in 1312, the portuguese king dom diniz, considering their achieved strenght, traded some trick with the pope and ended up keeping them, by renaming them "order of christ". this was a long shot, as this religious military order, headed by the best blood of portuguese nobles, like prince henry the navigator, were in the origin of the discoveries period, as from the XY century. the cross engraved in Jeff D sword must be the "cruz de cristo" ( christ cross ), a symbol brought from the templars gowns to the sails and armoury of the discovery soldiers. whether the masonics descend and cultivate some of all the templars knowledge, be it intrinsecal, esoteric, you name it, is something that transcends me. some even say that templars still exist. i find this type of values, assumed by whomever, seven hundred years ago, only plausible if performed by history. not to provoke a bottomless well, i'll stick to the little part of trying to find out the missing link in the swords motto engraving "no me saques ...", even a possible portuguese version of the text. there are inumerous pages on this theme over here ... there must be some track. sorry to be such a bore.

9th June 2005, 10:30 PM	#8
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	hi Jeff is that sword the real thing? are we talking XVI century here? sorry for my ignorance. but let's see: the cross ( no picture ) must be what i mentioned in the templar/masonic theme. the orb, most possibly the armilary orb ( esfera armilar ) was king dom manuel symbol ( 1495-1521 ). he had it in all the country castle doors and in the armoury of the forces he sent out aboard the first long route discovery ships. eventualy both his orb and the templar cross appeared together in arms, armour, flags and i think sails of the time.the word portugal in "viva de portugal" must be portvgal, if you look better at the blade. the v for an u was dropped from the portuguese ( and castilian ... ) "just the other day". but the wording still doesn't make sense as a phrase. something is abnormal here. i have picture of a 1642 portuguese extendeable blade rapier ( to ilude the blade length allowance ) quoted to have inscribed " viva el rey de portugael ". this pattern went on for a couple centuries, with and without the name of the king. in another picture, and with all the doubts for my non skilled eye, i see a sword similar to yours, named as a "combat (european ) sword of the second quarter XVI century", a beautyfull and emblematic portuguese specimen. being genuine, your sword is not invalueable, but on the way to that. keep well

9th June 2005, 11:36 PM	#9
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	how about this ? http://www.arscives.com/cejunior/portarmour/007.htm