THE MYTH OF GURKHA RIFLEMAN CARRYING PRIVATE

[sirupate]

Regarding your quote Jonathan from Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxford, I can't imagine he would spell there instead of their?
Also it is even harder to imagine some 500 odd Gurkhas running around trying to buy kukri (Which we know were in short supply), that would fit ordanance frogs for kukri, which were made to fit and come with a certain type of sarkari issue kukri anyway! So these poor Gurkhas had to go and find kukri from somewhere that fitted these particular frog types, that also complied with regimental/battalion regulations on type of kukri carried? It is a very bizare statement indeed!
Can you imagine British soldiers being given frogs for their bayonets, and being told they have to pay for them (when like the Gurkhas with kukri, it is issued kit, as is the bayonet), and then go and find bayonets that fit with carry regulations, and also fit in the frogs supplied!

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Originally Posted by sirupate

Regarding your quote Jonathan from , I can't imagine he would spell there instead of their?

The spelling mistake is certanly mine.

So first you say that Lt.Col.H.J. Huxford OBE Official Regimental history is wrong? Fascinating as he was the regiments Commanding Officer pre.ww2, Shame you besmirch such a Gurkha heros memory in this manner, rather than thinking any one man knows evrything.

Then you seem to accuse me of lying about what Leutenant-Colonel H.J. Huxford said in print Simon? Is that correct? {Please notice I havent said we only have your apparent memmory of what any gurkha officer may of said, are you sure there was no confusion there on your part?}

He also wrote a good piece about in 1944 them making there own kukris out of scrap.. .I have posted a quote about that for you before a couple of years ago.

Interesting "sikh"post card, please share a larger versian so we can read the regimental belt buckles in case the French postcard maker got the title wrong?


Why you quote Mohammad Hayats 1990 statement about seperating religions in 1941 British army I have no idea? Hardly relevant to Army Bearer Corps that was disbanded or rather amalgamated into the Indian Hospital Corps on 01 June 1920.

For the good members of this forum I should point out this discusian followed Simon saying this kukri on ebay ," seems to have Armourey Markings on it that don't seem quite right."



I then pointed out on IKRHS that I have similar marked kukris collected many years ago & it now appears so do quite a few others, The markings are genuine.


Heres a few photos of this piece. The Quetta arsenal stamp appears to be rare as its the only one to date Ive come across. {For whats that's worth as Ive only had 15 to 20 mk.1s in my hands & seen maybee another c.60 or more in photos & many thousands were obviously originaly made.}






This upset Simon enough that he came out with this on his forum.


I have to question why a member of the 3rd company (10 in all, some were based in Quetta) Indian Army Bearer corps would be carrying a kukri? and why a *different scabbard to the original? Who were mainly made up of Kahars (loosley 'a bearer') and Dooley (a bit like a Palanquin, but not as good) bearers, they would have to be very low caste Nepalese to be working in that corp, at that time, certainley not Gurkha caste!!
So no reason to issue kukri, which was only done to rifleman upwards in appropriate fighting regiments anyway.


Some Simon allegse that the Army Bearer corps were all low caste coolies etc so therfore could not. be of Gurkha ancestry.

To that I say you should also read this as well...


"and Indians in South Africa, under
the leadership of Mr. M. K. Gandhi, Barrister
at Law, organised themselves into an Army
Bearer Corps. It was touching that men of
high caste and station in life should brush
aside their pride of race and standing, and
work in the humble capacity of coolies. But
as more than one Indian who was thus em-
ployed has said to me, they cheerfully carried
the wounded British soldiers from the field to
the hospitals as their contribution towards
Britain's success."

From SAINT NIHAL SINGH Author of "India's Fighting Troops," 1914 marston press.

& some photos of ABC kukris & Men.

Ive got the names & army records of over 1500 ABC ww1 personal, the were all creeds,colours ,religeons & castes. Some were of Gurkha ancestry. {Over 1000 of them cam from the War Graves Commisions records.].

Also Brave Nepali men who served & survivd like.

Jagan Nath
Corps: Army Bearer Corps
Regiment No: 44342
Rank: Bearer

Kanshi Ram
Corps: Army Bearer Corps
Regiment No: 3532
Rank: Bearer

Harak Bahadur
Corps: 2nd Army Bearer Corps
Regiment No: 224613
Rank: Bearer


etc. etc. These names clearly show descent from the Gurkha/Gorka castes.



& as Dr. Premsingh Basnyat (Ph.D) states on his website when talking about the jobs of Nepalese army units on loan to the British Indian army.


"The impending tasks given to the Nepalese army were :-
Stretcher Bearer,Military Police,Sentry Duty,Artillery crew."

Which means even the Gurka solders from the Nepalese army Battalions KALIBOX, PURANO GORAKH, DEVI DUTTA, KALI BAHADUR, BARDA BAHADUR, SUMSER DAL, JABAR JUNG, PASUPATI PRASAD, RAMDAL, SHER, SINMHANATH, MAHENDRADAL, NAYAN GORAKH, SABUJ AND BARAKH were not above the task of bieng strecher bearers. I figure its safe to say they were of Gurkha ancestry as after all they were in the Royal Nepal Army!

Not to mention

ABC is the official identifying abbreviation & marking code of the Indian Army Bearer Corps.This code is used on Army Documents,medals & issued equipment.




Heres a partial list. from "The Collector and Researcher's Guide to the Great War" by Howard Williamson.{courtesy of National Archives.}


A & N.Z. SIG. SQUN. AIF Australia & New Zealand Signal Squadron AIF AUS
A. CYC. CORPS Army Cyclist Corps G.B.
A. CYCLIST CORPS Army Cyclist Corps G.B.
A. EMP. COY. A.I.F. Army Employment Company AUS
A. GYM. ST. Army Gymnastic Staff G.B.
A. MULE DEPOT. Army Mule Department I
A. PROV. C.A.I.F. Army Provost Corps AIF AUS
A. & S. HIGHRS. Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders G.B.
A. & S.H. Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders G.B.
A.A.H.A.I.F. Australian Auxiliary Hospital AIF AUS
A.A.N.S. Army Auxiliary Nursing Service G.B.
A.A.N.S. Australian Army Nursing Service AUS
A.B. CPS. Army Bearer Corps I
A.B.C. Army Bearer Corps I

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Heres the ABC uniform of WW1.

& a bearer wearing it.



Close ups might help?



As a

[spiral]

point of information for those who may not realise, The Army Bearer Corps uniform including the turban was worn by all denominations,castes & religions by WW1. It was the standard uniform. It doesnt mean there Sikh, Some are without doubt but in truth & record they were mostly Muslim & Hindu with Sikhs & converted Christians in the Minority. { Curiosly most of the converted Christians were just recorded under the single name of Joseph}At one time even one of the Gurkha regiments wore turbans for a short few year period. As apparently some accuse me of desperatly scraping the barrel
on this subject perhaps I should share a little more? , to re educate you again? Heres some pictures Ive had since I first researched the ABC kukri so many years ago... Heres A mk.2 Cossipore made kukri dated 1917 & marked to an ABC unit That I picked up even before my Mk1 ABC marked kukri, alongside the ABC marked 1. {via Fort William & Queeta.}





Heres a posed photo commercialy Published in Marseile 1915. sometimes misstranslated as French Hindoos actualy it translates as Hindoos in France.





I know this because I bought this photo 8 years ago when first reasearching into the Army Bearer Corps & It features the same chap. With the same background.



There belt buckles even say Army Bearer Corps!






Threads & quotes relevent to this post.

http://torabladesforum.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=900

http://www.ikrhs.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=617



Rick,Gav,Tim etc. I have confidence in your abilitys to eventualy get to the truth amongst the smoke & mirrors.

Ive waisted one hour of my life putting this post together today.
His point is not proven.

Have fun chaps!

Spiral

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Heres Andy Taylors kukri obtained from his long time friend Peter Prentice MBE ex Gurkha rifles officer & his statement about it.

This is Peter's khukri that he carried with him during his time in the Ghurka Rifles. As I mentioned officers weren't issued with khukris but his men presented him with this to use in the field. It was used through the whole time he spent in French Indo China. The jungle warfare scenario would have contributed to its condition. The hilt cracked and he said one of his men effected a battlefield repair with some wire. The hilt also has a chunk out of the end and the aluminium butt plate is loose. There is only one chakma and this has a square edge for honing. You will also notice that the surface is rough and this was used with a flint to make fire. Peter said the flint was kept in the leather pouch, which you will notice that the stitching has rotted. The small pointy stick was a puzzle and I assumed it was for making shavings to start a fire. Peter told me it was his tooth pick and tooth brush. He said the wooden and bristle army issue toothbrushes rotted quickly in the damp atmosphere and if a bit of stick was good enough for the men of Nepal for God knows how long it worked for him!





Its clearly a ww2 era villiger piece from Nepal or heavily Nepali influnced & garrisoned areas {such as Darjeeling perhaps}, & interesting that the riflemenmen gave their esteemed officer such a clearly private purchase village kukri & that they had it ready to hand when official issue kukris would have been so easily obtainable from army stores? & they {the gurkha ranks.] clearly thought such a piece made a more valid piece to present to an Officer for field carry.they clearly valued such a fast & balenced native piece more highly than the officail pattern issue mk.w2 or mk.3 at the time.

But one can make thier own deductions, from thios I am sure.

Interestingly many people dont realise the British army & Gurkha regiments used many captured Japanese prisoners of war {including officers.}, by rearming them in 45,46,to help quell the native desire for independance in areas like malaya & vietnam etc. in that difficult period. That always seemed so cynical & incorrect to me to use such people, given the circumstances, but I guess goverments always do what they will to control the masses.

spiral

[sirupate]

Jonathan, this thread has become so diverse with your introduction of old debates from other forums, that I have re-started on a new thread, so people will find it easier to follow.

If you want to start a new thread about Gurkhas in the ABC walking around with Mk1 and Mk2 kukri that is fine by me, if you also want to start another new thread about so called double inspection marks on the Mk1 kukri that is also fine with me as well.

In the meantime an answer to my question posed to you on this thread would be excellent;
Part two

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Dont run away simon, Please answear the points raised on this thread, I am sure that will hope peoples clarity no end, i have confidence in the abilitys of the forumites here to gain the perception of how reliable or not, what each of us say is on these given points are,re. private purchase & the ABC questian that is still current & illustrates quite a lot about both are attitudes & usde of evidence I think?

As does Peter Prentices kukri.

Thread divergence is quite usual on this forum.

Please continue.

Spiral