WW2 Hill Tribe Dha

Tim Simmons · 12th June 2010, 01:48 PM

Came across this interesting Dha today. The scabbard is a little batterd but still with the sword. Interesting the use of a British Hercules bicycle wheel hub for handle and guard. It works perfectly and gives a slightly Japanese look which I think is just incidental. Nice looking blade with fancy fullering and decoration. I do not think the blade is wonderful but all you need to hurt people with. Inlay of copper, brass, and what I think is zinc or aluminium. I would not be surprised if it is from tribal help to behind the lines fighters like Z force in Borneo.

Lew · 12th June 2010, 04:01 PM

Tim

I have my doubts on this one. The blade is too clean compared to the hilt and scabbard. The gap between the hilt and blade is a sign to me that this was put together by a person not of the hilltribe. The blade is good quality and nice and nicely decorated an interesting piece.

Lew

Tim Simmons · 12th June 2010, 05:46 PM

Yeah I have cleaned the small rust patches of the blade. Some of the small patches were rather deep and sadly will always be pitted.

Nathaniel · 12th June 2010, 06:17 PM

Interesting piece, especially the blade.

Thanks for sharing...there has been a sad lack of Dha postings lately

katana · 12th June 2010, 10:12 PM

I like it Tim

,
I thought most Dha blades were an 'interference' fit in the handle. Perhaps the tang was slightly 'over wrapped' before insertion, preventing a 'total' fit.

I love the idea of an old bike being broken up to use as parts....and using a wheel hub, a 'master' stroke. Nice blade, I wonder if the 'white' metal decoration are from old dry cell battery casings (if Zinc alloy).

Were small nails commonly used to fix the (shark/ray skin ?) wrapping on Dha ?

Regards David

Nathaniel · 13th June 2010, 12:55 AM

David,

To answer your question, regarding the nails and rayskin, yes...very common in Burman dha.

See these examples:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6350

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5970

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5425

http://home.comcast.net/~jtcrosby/Dha.html

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel.../227-iag08.jpg

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel.../228-ayw16.jpg

katana · 13th June 2010, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

David,

To answer your question, regarding the nails and rayskin, yes...very common in Burman dha.

Thank you Nathaniel ....for your answer and links, very informative

Regards David

Tim Simmons · 13th June 2010, 04:52 PM

Thanks David and Nathaniel. I had a fancy ivory handle dha but I find this one more intriguing. This link to a to a tsuba sword guard inspired by a motor cycle disc brake is interesting. I wonder if the tsuba psycho babble in the link in the thread has any relevance. Personally I think the wheel hub was chosen out of practicality. If it was not that old when constructed it would have been really nice shiny hard and good looking. As Hercules started production in 1910 it could well be earlier than ww2.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=disc+brake

Psycho babble-

http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/ra...numerology.htm

Atlantia · 13th June 2010, 05:01 PM

The blade is beautiful.
Not sure about the auto parts....

aiontay · 14th June 2010, 01:28 AM

What particular hill tribe is this sword supposed to come from?

Tim Simmons · 14th June 2010, 07:02 AM

Sadly I have no idea.

I have lots of pictures of Burmese tribes people with Doa swords but nothing with Dha. Unlike Africa it seems there is not a lot of information on regional styles.

If anybody has any good pictures, books and general sound information, I think there would be many members grateful to view it.

Andrew · 14th June 2010, 06:01 PM

I don't really have much to add regarding this one that hasn't already been mentioned. Blade, handle and scabbard do not "jive". I think the scabbard is WWII-vintage, but the blade and handle look mis-matched.

I'd actually like to see some better pics of the scabbard, if possible, Tim. I have a WWII dha with a very similar scabbard. It's the one with the "BP ->" (Burma Police) marked blade and guard/pommel/scabbard fittings crafted from brass shell casings.

Andrew · 14th June 2010, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Simmons

Sadly I have no idea.

I have lots of pictures of Burmese tribes people with Doa swords but nothing with Dha. Unlike Africa it seems there is not a lot of information on regional styles.

If anybody has any good pictures, books and general sound information, I think there would be many members grateful to view it.

The source material (in English, anyway) for this information is very scarce. The article Mark, Ian and I wrote for the "History of Steel" exhibition catalogue contains a bibliography that would be my suggested starting point for anyone with a desire to travel down this road. Mark likely has accumulated additional titles I am unaware of--hopefully he will chime in here.

There is a great deal of "sharing" between various Hill Tribes in SEA, so it has been quite frustrating to try to pin down forms and decoration to one particular ethnic group. The extant data regarding textiles and jewelry is vastly greater than that for ethnographic weapons.

We know a great deal more than we did a few years ago, but I suspect it will take some primary research dedicated specifically to this issue to see any significant progress. Unfortunately, I do not have the time to conduct that research and, even if I did, the political and social environments of Thailand and, especially, Myanmar, do not make such a trip particularly inviting at the moment.

I have woefully neglected my personal, amateur research for several years now, so others may have new information to share.

Andrew · 14th June 2010, 06:13 PM

Link to the HOS article:

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...ea.article.htm

Scroll to bottom for bibliography.

Tim Simmons · 14th June 2010, 06:48 PM

Andrew, thank you for your interest. Here are some pictures of the scabbard sorry they are not daylight pictures. I do not really see what good pictures of the scabbard are. If the use of found objects on Dha is deemed unacceptable, unlike say weapons from Africa or the Philippine Islands. Then is there any point of further discussion of this particular piece?

Andrew · 14th June 2010, 06:56 PM

Only "good" for my personal reasons, Tim--I wanted to compare your scabbard to some of mine.

I would argue strenuously that the use of found objects on these swords is definitely acceptible. Some of my most interesting dha have such additions. Also, it is not at all uncommon to find older blades remounted with newer fittings, or swords assembled from seemingly disparate component parts.

I think your example is both interesting and worthy of discussion. I apologize if my prior comments led you to believe otherwise. Thank you for sharing it.

Tim Simmons · 14th June 2010, 07:19 PM

I agree with you Andrew the line to the eye in the scabbard is not the sweetest but I can say that in the hand is really sweet. The bicycle parts have not just been sawn up and stuck on willy-nilly. A balance between blade and the handle has been found as in all good weapons.

Tim Simmons · 14th June 2010, 07:53 PM

I have the feeling the parts came from a back wheel, direct drive no gears. This picture is from a 1934 model. Not the right pieces, but the bits in question could be from an earlier model or perhaps a latter model.

http://oldbike.wordpress.com/1940s-h...watsonian-side

Jim McDougall · 14th June 2010, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

I like it Tim

,
I thought most Dha blades were an 'interference' fit in the handle. Perhaps the tang was slightly 'over wrapped' before insertion, preventing a 'total' fit.

I love the idea of an old bike being broken up to use as parts....and using a wheel hub, a 'master' stroke. Nice blade, I wonder if the 'white' metal decoration are from old dry cell battery casings (if Zinc alloy).

Were small nails commonly used to fix the (shark/ray skin ?) wrapping on Dha ?

Regards David

David, regarding batteries...many years ago I had a Burmese dha with the heavily embossed casing overall and the 'story' type blade. In looking closely at the motif in the casing one day, I could clearly see 'Ever ready' ! the well known batteries.

Very innovative use of materials!

Andrew, the work you, Mark and Ian did over the years on dha is definitely legion!!! I recall that when you guys began this, there was virtually no reference material on these weapons, though Carter Rila did some brief preliminary work. Its nice to see you posting

katana · 14th June 2010, 10:26 PM

Thanks Jim

,
I am not surprised, zinc battery cases have been known to be used in Africa.

I, personally, often find it facinating how the 'refuse' of the 'industrial' colonist's / invaders/ settlers are utilized by the indiginous people. I would imagine at the time of the hilt's manufacture, the chromed axle was probably 'nice and shiny' and not only was pleasing to the eye ...but provided a nice 'counter-weight to the blade. Shame about the engraved writing.....but thats me looking through the eyes of a 'Westerner'. Perhaps, to the owner, unable to read English would view the 'design' differently....or even Talismatically ...
I am reminded in the craze of ethnic tatoo's a few years ago....often with the script in the original language.....often the tatoo-ee was quite happy with the result but, later discovered the English translation was rather mundane and not as awe inspiring as they first thought.

Tim,
I am certain that the pommel is the other end of the hub with the spoke 'fixing ring' removed .....is there evidence of the use of an angle grinder, file or saw marks ?

Kind Regards David

aiontay · 15th June 2010, 01:04 AM

Just a couple of comments. First, this is supposed to be a WWII blade, and given the situation at the time, one can easily see how a sword could be cobbled togather with a bunch of disparate elements. Given that Japan controlled most of Burma during this time, a certain "Japanese" feel may not be unintended.

I have absolutely no empirical evidence for this, but I feel this isn't a "hill tribe" dha, but rather one made by a Burman. After all bicyles and sharkskin would have been in rather short supply around, say, Sumbrabum during WWII. On the other hand, it is entirely possible that this sword ended up in some hill tribesman's hand during the war.

Tim Simmons · 15th June 2010, 07:31 AM

aiontay, you raise some interesting possibilities.

The blade need not be WW2. I have to say even with the use of cycle parts there is nothing to suggest shortage of materials or evidence of hurried production. The work is clean with no tool marks. The Hercules bicycle production started from small beginnings in 1910. Expansion was swift and after war work for WW1 {presumably the army would still need bicycles as well as other military hardware} emerged in the 1920s as the worlds biggest exporter of bicycles. It might seem cheap to us to use bicycle parts but if you are from a non-industrial background, the shiny chrome bicycle parts may have been quite a prize to use in the sword handle.

So we could be looking at two decades or more before 1940.

I really like the idea of Japanese occupation influence. There was a degree of Burman support for the Japanese. Still a fancy blade for the restriction of war time production but not in anyway impossible. ref-Aung San's Burmese National Army

One reason I have no pictures of hill tribes with this type of Dha. May well be as you say: it is Burman. This is the only picture I have of this type of Dha and it is not helpful.

printed 1918.

Tim Simmons · 15th June 2010, 08:37 PM

Looking further into the bicycle matter. I have found these WW1 pictures of British military bicycles. I know that from 1914-1918 there was a war on but trade and traffic between the UK or should I say at that time GREAT BRITAIN and the empire colony of Burma would not have come to a complete halt. So it really is not unreasonable to consider a date of manufacture for this sword, some good time before WW2. War for Hercules bicycles could have been a good thing. Bicycles would be much simpler to export as colonial transport at that time than motor vehicles.

Jim McDougall · 15th June 2010, 08:38 PM

Aiontay, very astutely presented perspective! and well placed.

Good points you make too David. As I have discovered in studying many of the markings on trade blades adopted by Native peoples, the emphasis on these markings by the traders which was intended to suggest quality, became perceived in the sense of power.
This in turn became temporally associated talismanically, such as the paired moons on Saharan and some Sudanese sword blades, the cabalistic markings and in some cases the sickle marks or running wolf.

The tattoo analogy is excellent in describing this characteristic phenomenon. With todays tattoo craze, I am constantly astounded at the 'sheep' syndrome, where if everyone puts a tattoo on thier ankle....the followers must do the same thing. I have seen interesting geometric patterns in some and when I asked the often graffiti laden owner, what it means. The common response.....oh, its tribal. Huh? what tribal, do we have any idea what it is for?
I think sociologically the tattoo syndrome is really fascinating, especially historically, even in somewhat recent times when military forces, esp. sailors got them. After all, the maritime origins were profound. The point is, that the human need to find meaning is found throughout time and regardless of culture.

I remember another case where I was having a marking on a Chinese sword in Manchu script translated, and hoped to find some secretive or talismanic phrase......turned out to say...tempered steel

oh well.

All best regards,
Jim

Tim Simmons · 16th June 2010, 08:02 PM

Some respite here comfortably in the middle. Why is history so boring and distorted at schools? Saya San peasant rebellion.

aiontay · 17th June 2010, 04:09 AM

The Saya San Rebellion brings colonialism, tattoos and swords all togather. And while it was definitely a peasant rebellion, as Martin Smith notes, it did influence the Thakin movement.

Tim Simmons · 17th June 2010, 08:27 AM

Picture of questionable Victorian pose and taste, but gives some idea. On the other hand could be just a very decorative rent boy for want of better words?

aiontay · 17th June 2010, 12:48 PM

Note the caption underneath. Immunity from sword or gunshot wounds. The Karens and Shans have the same beliefs. I know of a pattern that is supposed to confer immunity to sword cuts.

Nathaniel · 17th June 2010, 02:03 PM

Thai have the same as well......some of the markings on the swords or person are for protection/ blessing.

Aiontay, do you have a picture or can draw a picture of the protection tatoo your mention? That would be interesting to see

Is it a Burmese, Shan or Kachin Yant?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yantra_tattooing

aiontay · 18th June 2010, 03:26 AM

It is a Karen pattern I was told about by the guy I learned (just a little) Karen sword fighting from. The design is a tiger on one arm and a naga on the other. I forget which arm is which. I need to pull out that video and watch it again. Anyway, it isn't just the pattern, but also what material is used and how it is done. You collect the blood of all sorts of strong, dangerous animals like tigers, pythons, elephants etc, and mix them together; that is your ink. Then you heat the tattooing needle red hot, dip it in the blood mix and then stick it in the skin. I don't know if it would actually stop sword cuts, but anyone willing submit to, and endure the proccess necessary to get that tattoo (and survive the likely infections following) is one tough guy. After enduring that, anything short of nuclear war has got to seem like a picnic.

12th June 2010, 01:48 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	WW2 Hill Tribe Dha Came across this interesting Dha today. The scabbard is a little batterd but still with the sword. Interesting the use of a British Hercules bicycle wheel hub for handle and guard. It works perfectly and gives a slightly Japanese look which I think is just incidental. Nice looking blade with fancy fullering and decoration. I do not think the blade is wonderful but all you need to hurt people with. Inlay of copper, brass, and what I think is zinc or aluminium. I would not be surprised if it is from tribal help to behind the lines fighters like Z force in Borneo. Attached Images

12th June 2010, 05:46 PM	#3
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Yeah I have cleaned the small rust patches of the blade. Some of the small patches were rather deep and sadly will always be pitted. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 12th June 2010 at 05:58 PM.

12th June 2010, 10:12 PM	#5
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	I like it Tim , I thought most Dha blades were an 'interference' fit in the handle. Perhaps the tang was slightly 'over wrapped' before insertion, preventing a 'total' fit. I love the idea of an old bike being broken up to use as parts....and using a wheel hub, a 'master' stroke. Nice blade, I wonder if the 'white' metal decoration are from old dry cell battery casings (if Zinc alloy). Were small nails commonly used to fix the (shark/ray skin ?) wrapping on Dha ? Regards David Last edited by katana; 13th June 2010 at 01:48 AM.

13th June 2010, 04:52 PM	#8
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Nothing new under the sun Thanks David and Nathaniel. I had a fancy ivory handle dha but I find this one more intriguing. This link to a to a tsuba sword guard inspired by a motor cycle disc brake is interesting. I wonder if the tsuba psycho babble in the link in the thread has any relevance. Personally I think the wheel hub was chosen out of practicality. If it was not that old when constructed it would have been really nice shiny hard and good looking. As Hercules started production in 1910 it could well be earlier than ww2. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=disc+brake Psycho babble- http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/ra...numerology.htm Last edited by Tim Simmons; 13th June 2010 at 05:12 PM. Reason: wrong date

14th June 2010, 06:48 PM	#15
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Andrew, thank you for your interest. Here are some pictures of the scabbard sorry they are not daylight pictures. I do not really see what good pictures of the scabbard are. If the use of found objects on Dha is deemed unacceptable, unlike say weapons from Africa or the Philippine Islands. Then is there any point of further discussion of this particular piece? Attached Images

12th June 2010, 04:01 PM	#2
Lew (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: East Coast USA Posts: 3,191	Tim I have my doubts on this one. The blade is too clean compared to the hilt and scabbard. The gap between the hilt and blade is a sign to me that this was put together by a person not of the hilltribe. The blade is good quality and nice and nicely decorated an interesting piece. Lew

12th June 2010, 06:17 PM	#4
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Interesting piece, especially the blade. Thanks for sharing...there has been a sad lack of Dha postings lately

13th June 2010, 12:55 AM	#6
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	David, To answer your question, regarding the nails and rayskin, yes...very common in Burman dha. See these examples: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6350 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5970 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5425 http://home.comcast.net/~jtcrosby/Dha.html http://www.arscives.com/historysteel.../227-iag08.jpg http://www.arscives.com/historysteel.../228-ayw16.jpg

13th June 2010, 05:01 PM	#9
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	The blade is beautiful. Not sure about the auto parts....

14th June 2010, 01:28 AM	#10
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	What particular hill tribe is this sword supposed to come from?

14th June 2010, 07:02 AM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Sadly I have no idea. I have lots of pictures of Burmese tribes people with Doa swords but nothing with Dha. Unlike Africa it seems there is not a lot of information on regional styles. If anybody has any good pictures, books and general sound information, I think there would be many members grateful to view it.

14th June 2010, 06:01 PM	#12
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	I don't really have much to add regarding this one that hasn't already been mentioned. Blade, handle and scabbard do not "jive". I think the scabbard is WWII-vintage, but the blade and handle look mis-matched. I'd actually like to see some better pics of the scabbard, if possible, Tim. I have a WWII dha with a very similar scabbard. It's the one with the "BP ->" (Burma Police) marked blade and guard/pommel/scabbard fittings crafted from brass shell casings.

14th June 2010, 06:13 PM	#14
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Link to the HOS article: http://www.arscives.com/historysteel...ea.article.htm Scroll to bottom for bibliography.

14th June 2010, 06:56 PM	#16
Andrew Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: USA Posts: 1,725	Only "good" for my personal reasons, Tim--I wanted to compare your scabbard to some of mine. I would argue strenuously that the use of found objects on these swords is definitely acceptible. Some of my most interesting dha have such additions. Also, it is not at all uncommon to find older blades remounted with newer fittings, or swords assembled from seemingly disparate component parts. I think your example is both interesting and worthy of discussion. I apologize if my prior comments led you to believe otherwise. Thank you for sharing it.

14th June 2010, 07:19 PM	#17
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I agree with you Andrew the line to the eye in the scabbard is not the sweetest but I can say that in the hand is really sweet. The bicycle parts have not just been sawn up and stuck on willy-nilly. A balance between blade and the handle has been found as in all good weapons.

14th June 2010, 07:53 PM	#18
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	I have the feeling the parts came from a back wheel, direct drive no gears. This picture is from a 1934 model. Not the right pieces, but the bits in question could be from an earlier model or perhaps a latter model. http://oldbike.wordpress.com/1940s-h...watsonian-side Attached Images

14th June 2010, 10:26 PM	#20
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,653	Thanks Jim , I am not surprised, zinc battery cases have been known to be used in Africa. I, personally, often find it facinating how the 'refuse' of the 'industrial' colonist's / invaders/ settlers are utilized by the indiginous people. I would imagine at the time of the hilt's manufacture, the chromed axle was probably 'nice and shiny' and not only was pleasing to the eye ...but provided a nice 'counter-weight to the blade. Shame about the engraved writing.....but thats me looking through the eyes of a 'Westerner'. Perhaps, to the owner, unable to read English would view the 'design' differently....or even Talismatically ... I am reminded in the craze of ethnic tatoo's a few years ago....often with the script in the original language.....often the tatoo-ee was quite happy with the result but, later discovered the English translation was rather mundane and not as awe inspiring as they first thought. Tim, I am certain that the pommel is the other end of the hub with the spoke 'fixing ring' removed .....is there evidence of the use of an angle grinder, file or saw marks ? Kind Regards David

15th June 2010, 01:04 AM	#21
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	Just a couple of comments. First, this is supposed to be a WWII blade, and given the situation at the time, one can easily see how a sword could be cobbled togather with a bunch of disparate elements. Given that Japan controlled most of Burma during this time, a certain "Japanese" feel may not be unintended. I have absolutely no empirical evidence for this, but I feel this isn't a "hill tribe" dha, but rather one made by a Burman. After all bicyles and sharkskin would have been in rather short supply around, say, Sumbrabum during WWII. On the other hand, it is entirely possible that this sword ended up in some hill tribesman's hand during the war.

15th June 2010, 07:31 AM	#22
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	aiontay, you raise some interesting possibilities. The blade need not be WW2. I have to say even with the use of cycle parts there is nothing to suggest shortage of materials or evidence of hurried production. The work is clean with no tool marks. The Hercules bicycle production started from small beginnings in 1910. Expansion was swift and after war work for WW1 {presumably the army would still need bicycles as well as other military hardware} emerged in the 1920s as the worlds biggest exporter of bicycles. It might seem cheap to us to use bicycle parts but if you are from a non-industrial background, the shiny chrome bicycle parts may have been quite a prize to use in the sword handle. So we could be looking at two decades or more before 1940. I really like the idea of Japanese occupation influence. There was a degree of Burman support for the Japanese. Still a fancy blade for the restriction of war time production but not in anyway impossible. ref-Aung San's Burmese National Army One reason I have no pictures of hill tribes with this type of Dha. May well be as you say: it is Burman. This is the only picture I have of this type of Dha and it is not helpful. printed 1918. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 15th June 2010 at 07:57 AM.

15th June 2010, 08:37 PM	#23
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Looking further into the bicycle matter. I have found these WW1 pictures of British military bicycles. I know that from 1914-1918 there was a war on but trade and traffic between the UK or should I say at that time GREAT BRITAIN and the empire colony of Burma would not have come to a complete halt. So it really is not unreasonable to consider a date of manufacture for this sword, some good time before WW2. War for Hercules bicycles could have been a good thing. Bicycles would be much simpler to export as colonial transport at that time than motor vehicles. Attached Images

15th June 2010, 08:38 PM	#24
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 9,943	Aiontay, very astutely presented perspective! and well placed. Good points you make too David. As I have discovered in studying many of the markings on trade blades adopted by Native peoples, the emphasis on these markings by the traders which was intended to suggest quality, became perceived in the sense of power. This in turn became temporally associated talismanically, such as the paired moons on Saharan and some Sudanese sword blades, the cabalistic markings and in some cases the sickle marks or running wolf. The tattoo analogy is excellent in describing this characteristic phenomenon. With todays tattoo craze, I am constantly astounded at the 'sheep' syndrome, where if everyone puts a tattoo on thier ankle....the followers must do the same thing. I have seen interesting geometric patterns in some and when I asked the often graffiti laden owner, what it means. The common response.....oh, its tribal. Huh? what tribal, do we have any idea what it is for? I think sociologically the tattoo syndrome is really fascinating, especially historically, even in somewhat recent times when military forces, esp. sailors got them. After all, the maritime origins were profound. The point is, that the human need to find meaning is found throughout time and regardless of culture. I remember another case where I was having a marking on a Chinese sword in Manchu script translated, and hoped to find some secretive or talismanic phrase......turned out to say...tempered steel oh well. All best regards, Jim

16th June 2010, 08:02 PM	#25
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Halfway house Some respite here comfortably in the middle. Why is history so boring and distorted at schools? Saya San peasant rebellion.

17th June 2010, 04:09 AM	#26
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	The Saya San Rebellion brings colonialism, tattoos and swords all togather. And while it was definitely a peasant rebellion, as Martin Smith notes, it did influence the Thakin movement.

17th June 2010, 08:27 AM	#27
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,806	Burman+Tattoos+Dha Picture of questionable Victorian pose and taste, but gives some idea. On the other hand could be just a very decorative rent boy for want of better words? Attached Images

17th June 2010, 12:48 PM	#28
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	Note the caption underneath. Immunity from sword or gunshot wounds. The Karens and Shans have the same beliefs. I know of a pattern that is supposed to confer immunity to sword cuts.

17th June 2010, 02:03 PM	#29
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Thai have the same as well......some of the markings on the swords or person are for protection/ blessing. Aiontay, do you have a picture or can draw a picture of the protection tatoo your mention? That would be interesting to see Is it a Burmese, Shan or Kachin Yant? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yantra_tattooing

18th June 2010, 03:26 AM	#30
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	It is a Karen pattern I was told about by the guy I learned (just a little) Karen sword fighting from. The design is a tiger on one arm and a naga on the other. I forget which arm is which. I need to pull out that video and watch it again. Anyway, it isn't just the pattern, but also what material is used and how it is done. You collect the blood of all sorts of strong, dangerous animals like tigers, pythons, elephants etc, and mix them together; that is your ink. Then you heat the tattooing needle red hot, dip it in the blood mix and then stick it in the skin. I don't know if it would actually stop sword cuts, but anyone willing submit to, and endure the proccess necessary to get that tattoo (and survive the likely infections following) is one tough guy. After enduring that, anything short of nuclear war has got to seem like a picnic.