WW2 Hill Tribe Dha

Tim Simmons · 12th June 2010, 05:46 PM

Yeah I have cleaned the small rust patches of the blade. Some of the small patches were rather deep and sadly will always be pitted.

Nathaniel · 12th June 2010, 06:17 PM

Interesting piece, especially the blade.

Thanks for sharing...there has been a sad lack of Dha postings lately

katana · 12th June 2010, 10:12 PM

I like it Tim

,
I thought most Dha blades were an 'interference' fit in the handle. Perhaps the tang was slightly 'over wrapped' before insertion, preventing a 'total' fit.

I love the idea of an old bike being broken up to use as parts....and using a wheel hub, a 'master' stroke. Nice blade, I wonder if the 'white' metal decoration are from old dry cell battery casings (if Zinc alloy).

Were small nails commonly used to fix the (shark/ray skin ?) wrapping on Dha ?

Regards David

Nathaniel · 13th June 2010, 12:55 AM

David,

To answer your question, regarding the nails and rayskin, yes...very common in Burman dha.

See these examples:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6350

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5970

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5425

http://home.comcast.net/~jtcrosby/Dha.html

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel.../227-iag08.jpg

http://www.arscives.com/historysteel.../228-ayw16.jpg

katana · 13th June 2010, 01:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nathaniel

David,

To answer your question, regarding the nails and rayskin, yes...very common in Burman dha.

Thank you Nathaniel ....for your answer and links, very informative

Regards David

Tim Simmons · 13th June 2010, 04:52 PM

Thanks David and Nathaniel. I had a fancy ivory handle dha but I find this one more intriguing. This link to a to a tsuba sword guard inspired by a motor cycle disc brake is interesting. I wonder if the tsuba psycho babble in the link in the thread has any relevance. Personally I think the wheel hub was chosen out of practicality. If it was not that old when constructed it would have been really nice shiny hard and good looking. As Hercules started production in 1910 it could well be earlier than ww2.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=disc+brake

Psycho babble-

http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/ra...numerology.htm

Atlantia · 13th June 2010, 05:01 PM

The blade is beautiful.
Not sure about the auto parts....

Jim McDougall · 14th June 2010, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by katana

I like it Tim

,
I thought most Dha blades were an 'interference' fit in the handle. Perhaps the tang was slightly 'over wrapped' before insertion, preventing a 'total' fit.

I love the idea of an old bike being broken up to use as parts....and using a wheel hub, a 'master' stroke. Nice blade, I wonder if the 'white' metal decoration are from old dry cell battery casings (if Zinc alloy).

Were small nails commonly used to fix the (shark/ray skin ?) wrapping on Dha ?

Regards David

David, regarding batteries...many years ago I had a Burmese dha with the heavily embossed casing overall and the 'story' type blade. In looking closely at the motif in the casing one day, I could clearly see 'Ever ready' ! the well known batteries.

Very innovative use of materials!

Andrew, the work you, Mark and Ian did over the years on dha is definitely legion!!! I recall that when you guys began this, there was virtually no reference material on these weapons, though Carter Rila did some brief preliminary work. Its nice to see you posting

katana · 14th June 2010, 10:26 PM

Thanks Jim

,
I am not surprised, zinc battery cases have been known to be used in Africa.

I, personally, often find it facinating how the 'refuse' of the 'industrial' colonist's / invaders/ settlers are utilized by the indiginous people. I would imagine at the time of the hilt's manufacture, the chromed axle was probably 'nice and shiny' and not only was pleasing to the eye ...but provided a nice 'counter-weight to the blade. Shame about the engraved writing.....but thats me looking through the eyes of a 'Westerner'. Perhaps, to the owner, unable to read English would view the 'design' differently....or even Talismatically ...
I am reminded in the craze of ethnic tatoo's a few years ago....often with the script in the original language.....often the tatoo-ee was quite happy with the result but, later discovered the English translation was rather mundane and not as awe inspiring as they first thought.

Tim,
I am certain that the pommel is the other end of the hub with the spoke 'fixing ring' removed .....is there evidence of the use of an angle grinder, file or saw marks ?

Kind Regards David

aiontay · 15th June 2010, 01:04 AM

Just a couple of comments. First, this is supposed to be a WWII blade, and given the situation at the time, one can easily see how a sword could be cobbled togather with a bunch of disparate elements. Given that Japan controlled most of Burma during this time, a certain "Japanese" feel may not be unintended.

I have absolutely no empirical evidence for this, but I feel this isn't a "hill tribe" dha, but rather one made by a Burman. After all bicyles and sharkskin would have been in rather short supply around, say, Sumbrabum during WWII. On the other hand, it is entirely possible that this sword ended up in some hill tribesman's hand during the war.

Tim Simmons · 15th June 2010, 07:31 AM

aiontay, you raise some interesting possibilities.

The blade need not be WW2. I have to say even with the use of cycle parts there is nothing to suggest shortage of materials or evidence of hurried production. The work is clean with no tool marks. The Hercules bicycle production started from small beginnings in 1910. Expansion was swift and after war work for WW1 {presumably the army would still need bicycles as well as other military hardware} emerged in the 1920s as the worlds biggest exporter of bicycles. It might seem cheap to us to use bicycle parts but if you are from a non-industrial background, the shiny chrome bicycle parts may have been quite a prize to use in the sword handle.

So we could be looking at two decades or more before 1940.

I really like the idea of Japanese occupation influence. There was a degree of Burman support for the Japanese. Still a fancy blade for the restriction of war time production but not in anyway impossible. ref-Aung San's Burmese National Army

One reason I have no pictures of hill tribes with this type of Dha. May well be as you say: it is Burman. This is the only picture I have of this type of Dha and it is not helpful.

printed 1918.

12th June 2010, 05:46 PM	#1
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,891	Yeah I have cleaned the small rust patches of the blade. Some of the small patches were rather deep and sadly will always be pitted. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 12th June 2010 at 05:58 PM.

12th June 2010, 10:12 PM	#3
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	I like it Tim , I thought most Dha blades were an 'interference' fit in the handle. Perhaps the tang was slightly 'over wrapped' before insertion, preventing a 'total' fit. I love the idea of an old bike being broken up to use as parts....and using a wheel hub, a 'master' stroke. Nice blade, I wonder if the 'white' metal decoration are from old dry cell battery casings (if Zinc alloy). Were small nails commonly used to fix the (shark/ray skin ?) wrapping on Dha ? Regards David Last edited by katana; 13th June 2010 at 01:48 AM.

13th June 2010, 04:52 PM	#6
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,891	Nothing new under the sun Thanks David and Nathaniel. I had a fancy ivory handle dha but I find this one more intriguing. This link to a to a tsuba sword guard inspired by a motor cycle disc brake is interesting. I wonder if the tsuba psycho babble in the link in the thread has any relevance. Personally I think the wheel hub was chosen out of practicality. If it was not that old when constructed it would have been really nice shiny hard and good looking. As Hercules started production in 1910 it could well be earlier than ww2. http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ght=disc+brake Psycho babble- http://www.arscives.com/bladesign/ra...numerology.htm Last edited by Tim Simmons; 13th June 2010 at 05:12 PM. Reason: wrong date

15th June 2010, 07:31 AM	#11
Tim Simmons Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: What is still UK Posts: 5,891	aiontay, you raise some interesting possibilities. The blade need not be WW2. I have to say even with the use of cycle parts there is nothing to suggest shortage of materials or evidence of hurried production. The work is clean with no tool marks. The Hercules bicycle production started from small beginnings in 1910. Expansion was swift and after war work for WW1 {presumably the army would still need bicycles as well as other military hardware} emerged in the 1920s as the worlds biggest exporter of bicycles. It might seem cheap to us to use bicycle parts but if you are from a non-industrial background, the shiny chrome bicycle parts may have been quite a prize to use in the sword handle. So we could be looking at two decades or more before 1940. I really like the idea of Japanese occupation influence. There was a degree of Burman support for the Japanese. Still a fancy blade for the restriction of war time production but not in anyway impossible. ref-Aung San's Burmese National Army One reason I have no pictures of hill tribes with this type of Dha. May well be as you say: it is Burman. This is the only picture I have of this type of Dha and it is not helpful. printed 1918. Attached Images Last edited by Tim Simmons; 15th June 2010 at 07:57 AM.

12th June 2010, 06:17 PM	#2
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	Interesting piece, especially the blade. Thanks for sharing...there has been a sad lack of Dha postings lately

13th June 2010, 12:55 AM	#4
Nathaniel Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 865	David, To answer your question, regarding the nails and rayskin, yes...very common in Burman dha. See these examples: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6350 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5970 http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5425 http://home.comcast.net/~jtcrosby/Dha.html http://www.arscives.com/historysteel.../227-iag08.jpg http://www.arscives.com/historysteel.../228-ayw16.jpg

13th June 2010, 05:01 PM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	The blade is beautiful. Not sure about the auto parts....

14th June 2010, 10:26 PM	#9
katana Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Kent Posts: 2,658	Thanks Jim , I am not surprised, zinc battery cases have been known to be used in Africa. I, personally, often find it facinating how the 'refuse' of the 'industrial' colonist's / invaders/ settlers are utilized by the indiginous people. I would imagine at the time of the hilt's manufacture, the chromed axle was probably 'nice and shiny' and not only was pleasing to the eye ...but provided a nice 'counter-weight to the blade. Shame about the engraved writing.....but thats me looking through the eyes of a 'Westerner'. Perhaps, to the owner, unable to read English would view the 'design' differently....or even Talismatically ... I am reminded in the craze of ethnic tatoo's a few years ago....often with the script in the original language.....often the tatoo-ee was quite happy with the result but, later discovered the English translation was rather mundane and not as awe inspiring as they first thought. Tim, I am certain that the pommel is the other end of the hub with the spoke 'fixing ring' removed .....is there evidence of the use of an angle grinder, file or saw marks ? Kind Regards David

15th June 2010, 01:04 AM	#10
aiontay Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 88	Just a couple of comments. First, this is supposed to be a WWII blade, and given the situation at the time, one can easily see how a sword could be cobbled togather with a bunch of disparate elements. Given that Japan controlled most of Burma during this time, a certain "Japanese" feel may not be unintended. I have absolutely no empirical evidence for this, but I feel this isn't a "hill tribe" dha, but rather one made by a Burman. After all bicyles and sharkskin would have been in rather short supply around, say, Sumbrabum during WWII. On the other hand, it is entirely possible that this sword ended up in some hill tribesman's hand during the war.