17thC relic Rapier saved?

[fernando]

Hi Gene,
Lovely relic; is it yours?
Don't you have Norman's book?
Let's ask Jim if he agrees this has a pommel #60 ... or the likes of it?
A hilt not distant to #84?
Definitely a sword from the first half XVII century?
As if i knew something about these things
Anyway, if you struggle a bit, i can accept it as gift .
Fernando

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Gene,
Lovely relic; is it yours?
Don't you have Norman's book?
Let's ask Jim if he agrees this has a pommel #60 ... or the likes of it?
A hilt not distant to #84?
Definitely a sword from the first half XVII century?
As if i knew something about these things
Anyway, if you struggle a bit, i can accept it as gift .
Fernando

Hello Buddy.
Yes its mine, bought it today.
Don't have access to my limited books at the moment
But I don't have 'Normans'
Where to start on the conservation/cleaning?

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

... Where to start on the conservation/cleaning?...

No where .
Maybe (maybe) some inocuous conservation stuff; something innocent like olive oil?
Let's see other member's opinion .

[Jim McDougall]

Thank you Fernando!!!

Nicely done Gene! This appears to be closest to hilt #55, which is a cuphilt rapier with alternating quillons probably Continental, N. European c. 1625-40
("The Rapier & the Smallsword 1460-1820", A.V.B.Norman, N.Y. 1980).
It appears that similar hilts were also produced in Toledo about the same period notably by Tomas Aiala. There is great similarity in hilts in these periods following popular fashion, so often it is hard to categorize with definition.

I would proceed with great care and reservation in conserving this piece, and most important is stabilizing any active rust. The patination is pretty solid and trying to work into it would not only compromise the integrity of the sword, but its value, potential damage notwithstanding.

[celtan]

Je concur avec Ferdinand...


... I can accept it as a gift!

: )

Yep, early 17th C. The pommel seems intended to really balance the weapon, thus its the Real McCoy.

Olive Oil works, yet will darken metal.

Yo

Originally Posted by fernando

Hi Gene,
Lovely relic; is it yours?
Don't you have Norman's book?
Let's ask Jim if he agrees this has a pommel #60 ... or the likes of it?
A hilt not distant to #84?
Definitely a sword from the first half XVII century?
As if i knew something about these things
Anyway, if you struggle a bit, i can accept it as gift .
Fernando

[Matchlock]

Hi Gene,

This is a German type so-called Pappenheimer Rapier, Thirty Years War, ca. 1630; there are examples known that are dated 1632 on the blade.

A very similiar in perfect condition and retaining its original sheath was sold from the famous Henk L. Visser collection, Bonhams, London, 27 Nov 2007, and now is in the collection of a friend of mine. Please see attachments.

When cleaning the very delicate blade please note that there must be a fine central ridge visible all the way down almost to the tip.
For a start, please use olive oil together with 240 grain sandpaper and work your way down to 600 or 800 grains for the final finish, always with a thick layer of olive oil between the iron and the paper.

Please also note that the pommel and hilt were originally blackened; I would therefore suggest to confine your cleaning action to the blade and just blacken the hilt and pommel by tannin which you should get in any drug store; leave it to dry for two or three days, then put a thick layer of olive oil on both the blackened parts and the cleaned blade and let the whole dry for ca. 6 weeks. You will then get a best possibly recovered and patinated surface, and a conserved one as well; the dried olive oil will stay there and prevent the fingers from getting thru onto the iron surface.

I, and I am sure I am not the only one here, would love to see some pics of the result!

Best,
Michael

[Matchlock]

Some 17th century portraits of the famous Gottfried Heinrich Graf von Pappenheim (Central Franconia, Bavaria) after whom these rapiers that he ordered for his troup are named.

In the first portrait you can see such a rapier at his side.
m

[Jim McDougall]

pappenheimer! cool!!

[Philip]

....for instance, in the kitchen. Just tonight I made this wonderful little appetizer of sliced Japanese "momotaro" tomatoes sprinkled with chopped fresh basil and some crumbled chevre, and drizzled-over with some Greek olive oil. Oink!

For de-rusting and stabilizing corroded surfaces without compromising the patina, I like to use a brand of penetrating oil called "Break-Free" which is popular with firearms enthusiasts since it loosens superficial rust and does a great job of lubricating and preserving without harming finishes such as bluing, parkerizing, or browning (the latter being a form of oxydation which is a cousin to the natural patina on old iron and steel surfaces such as your rapier).

I tend to eschew the use of sandpaper of all kinds when preservation of a dark patina is an issue, in favor of
1. Small brushes with fine brass and stainless-steel bristles, these are about the size of the ones you brush your teeth with.
2. Steel wool in various grades in the medium-to-fine range (2 to 00)
3. Picks and scrapers made of hard non-metallic materials (in Japan, deer antler is the traditional material for the tools used on corroded iron tsubas and sword-tangs. The reason that antler is so favored is that it's hard enough to flake rust away yet won't expose bare metal which is a no-no for tsubas and tangs.
4. Stainless steel dental picks -- use only in the deepest pits or otherwise inaccessible areas such as between blade and guard.
These are listed in "mild to aggressive" order. The first two are the mainstays, with the oil they will take off most of the surface rust one normally encounters and yet when used gently and judiciously, the hard patina underneath will be preserved. The second two work best in "lunar-landscape" areas. Gentle but persistent prodding with the tools does the trick, until the active rust is flaked off the affected area.

When the surface is where you want it to be, you can clean all the accumulated oil and residue off with something like WD-40 and a succession of clean rags until the cloth is more or less unsullied with gunk and rust, and then follow up with a non-greasy preservative like Renaissance Wax. The beauty of the Break-Free is that repeated applications during the time you've been working on the piece will enable the molecules of the oil to really sink in to the pores of the metal (that's why it's such a good lube for things like semi-auto firearms whose working parts are subject to lots of friction). The Renaissance Wax is an effective surface protector that won't get your hands all dirty when you're playing with your toys, and more importantly, won't stain the wallpaper or the backing of your display cabinet if you like to hang them up for all to admire...

[Hotspur]

Why olive oil, specifically if one can please explain? Extra virgin or not?

Forgive me if I read it as something perhaps just trendy, or someone once had great results with simply an oil that happened to be at hand.

Olive oil has been recomended in the past for leather care and I question that,as it gets rancid. I guess this is not an issue if the metal is then going to be cleaned and if oiled regularly, not an issue with it going rancid and getting gummy.

For polishing/sanding work as well, I would question the use of such a heavy viscosity as any olive oil I am familiar with, as lighter oils (or solvents, or water) will float the debris more easily and not plug as heavier oils will.

Enlighten me to the virtues of olive oil. I guess that is as simply I can ask.

Cordially

GC