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Old 5th June 2010, 12:32 AM   #1
Matchlock
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Hi Philip,

I must admit to have forgotten where I read about the 1332 Chinese handgun. It probably was in some of the earlier volumes of the Zeitschrift für Historische Waffen- und Kostümkunde e.V., Berlin, 1897 and still being continued. Whenever I come across it I will let you know.

As I am not familiar with Chinese (and Far Eastern in general) weapons I cannot contribute as an expert to these. I just remember the shape of the cyphers being identical with Western modern cyphers.

I can tell from your use of the term of 'Schnappluntenschloss' that you are influenced by Rainer Daehnhardt's book Espingarda Feiticeira/The Bewitched Gun. I am sorry to say that from an impartial point of view, his book contains many essential mistakes regarding both terminology and dating. So the correct German term is of course Lunten-Schnappschloss but what he atually means would be Schwamm-Schnappschloss (snap tinderlock) as the guns he is talking about were not fired by a match cord (the heads of their tiny serpentines are far from being able to receive and hold match) but by a small and thin piece of glowing tinder (Schwamm). We have had this discussion before in several threads, very detailed and profusely illustrated, so you may wish to refer to them - especially as I published the same guns he did but with their correct origin (Nuremberg, instead of Bohemia) and date (ca. 1525, instead of 'ca. 1490' as Daehnhardt thought when erroneously following Arne Hoff's misdating of 1969.

Attached please find a characteristic Nuremberg made snap tinderlock arquebus of ca. 1525 and of the type I both inspected and photographed at large in the Západoceské Muzeum Pilsen. Of course the Pilsen armory got them from Nuremberg and they are still incorrectly labeled as Bohemian guns of ca. 1490 there - all based on Hoff's mistaken dating a gun of identical construction in the Landeszeughaus Graz to 'ca. 1490'. When first visiting Graz some 20 years ago I told the staff there that, as their gun was obviously a homemade Styrian production, it could not be dated before ca. 1525, being made after Nuremberg models. They then searched the city archives and found out that the maker's mark on that gun was the one of Peter Hofkircher, a gunsmith working nearby, who started furnishing guns to the Graz armory in 1524. So that was settled and has been regarded in all their publications ever since. After some discussions, it seems to me like Daehnhardt either does not have or does not wish to have knowledge of this fact because he continues dating all pieces too early.

Sadly, I cannot say much more on the Nuremberg (not Bohemian!) influences on the Oriental descendents, except that their lock pattern with the brass parts and springs, including their early German Renaissance decoration, of the 1520's was obviously closely followed by the Malaysian and Sri Lankan matchlocks while the Oriental butt stocks were orientated on the German double scroll style of the 1550's.

Best,
Michael
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Old 5th June 2010, 12:56 AM   #2
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Default The Graz Snap Tinderlock Haquebut of ca. 1526-30, Misdated to 'ca. 1490 by Hoff

Though being of Styrian production, it closely follows the somewhat earlier Nuremberg models.

See also some historical sources of illustration clearly depicting the use of a small piece of glowing tinder in the tiny tubular heads of those delicate serpentines, instead of a match cord.

Best,
Michael
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Old 5th June 2010, 01:23 AM   #3
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More snap tinderlocks which so far have been misinterpreted as matchlocks.

As we often see thick matchcord wrapped either around the forestocks of the guns or the arms of the arquebusier we must assume that the match was used to ignite the small pieces of tinder shown in the tubular heads of the serpentines.

Best,
Michael
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Old 5th June 2010, 07:44 PM   #4
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From Cod. germ. 734, ca. 1470; the piece of tinder can be clearly seen protruding from the tubular head of the serpentine.

m
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Old 5th June 2010, 08:32 PM   #5
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Default Snap tinderlocks in the Tunis campaign of the Emperor Charles V in 1535

Please note the red glowing pieces of tinder in the heads of the serpentines and the thick lengths of matchcord used to ignite the tinder!

Michael
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Old 6th June 2010, 07:58 AM   #6
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Default "fake" gun / R. Daehnhardt / match vs tinder

Dear Michael
Thanks for your sequence of posts with a wealth of pics! Please pass along the biblio reference on that 1332 Chinese hand cannon if and when you find it. I'd like to look into the issue of the style of the inscribed characters, the "handwriting" issue. It's an interesting contention but it needs to be examined with an understanding of non-Western approaches to writing styles; like Arabic script, many "fonts" remained surprisingly static over many centuries (even 1-2 millennia in the case of Chinese), unlike the case in Europe. Be that as it may, I realize that this is not a subject of interest to you (or germane to this thread) so I won't carry it further.

Yes, I have read Mr Daenhardt's book and appreciate the attempt to explain what is a very significant and interesting case of West-East technology transfer. But like you, I have serious reservations about a number of things in his book, ESPINGARDA FEITICEIRA. You and I approach it from opposite ends, our expertise being focused in different hemispheres. You raise excellent points (I am new to the European Armoury board, thanks to our colleague Fernando, thus have missed the earlier discussion about these guns) and I notice shortcomings in the analysis on the oriental side of the spectrum.

Whether the serpentine heads can accommodate matchcord or twists of tinder is an interesting point even when looking at various oriental gun locks which derive from these Nuremburg snapping tinderlocks (via Portugal in Goa). It varies from one culture-sphere to another. For instance, the Chinese almost immediately switched to a match-type serpentine shortly after receiving the snap lock from the Portuguese: the head is forked and opens wide enough for a cord. The Japanese (and Korean) serpentine uses a matchcord as evidenced by period illustrations and the fact that the stock is provided with a hole through which the cord runs right up to the serpentine. The Vietnamese serpentine has the same shape but its terminus is so small that only a wisp of tinder will fit there. A detached lock from Java ex-Blackmore collection has two brass tinder-holders attached by chains for keeping the smoldering stuff clear of the serpentine (and pan) until after priming--there are remains of fibrous tinder in these holders, they are insubstantial in size and clearly not twisted or braided enough to qualify as cord. All these types remained in use until the second half of the 19th cent, or even into the 20th in parts of SE Asia.
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Old 19th June 2010, 09:32 PM   #7
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Hallow, Michael! Is the 56 mm "A" or "B"? Else interesting to know the size of "C" and "D"
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