Where is this sheat from?

Sajen · 31st May 2010, 06:34 PM

Today I received the keris and this sheath is a real mystery for me. It's carved from a very lightweight wood and not very fine executed but definitively with a good age. There are unfortunately two old repairs. The carvings are not symmetric. The width down from the Tampingan are 30 mm (1,18 inch).
Here some first pictures:

DAHenkel · 1st June 2010, 12:04 AM

That sheath is definitely 100% Pattani so it looks like you have gotten yourself a composite piece with a (likely) Madura blade and hilt.

This thread though raises the very relevant connection between the North Coast of Java and the origins of the keris in the Northeast Peninsula. There is definitely a strong connection - all you have to do is scan through Karsten Jensen's book. The familial relationship is sometimes striking!

Now Detlef, all you gotta do is keep your eyes peeled for an early Pattani blade and a bangsa agung or earlier style coteng hilt.

ganjawulung · 2nd June 2010, 01:27 AM

For comparison,

Side view of two Cirebon warangkas, and upper view of them. Gustav post #37, IMHO is clearly images of Banten warangka...

GANJAWULUNG

Gustav · 2nd June 2010, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

For comparison,

Side view of two Cirebon warangkas, and upper view of them. Gustav post #37, IMHO is clearly images of Banten warangka...

GANJAWULUNG

Dear Ganjawulung,

I am fully aware the top picture in my post #37 would be regarded by most people as Wrongko from Banten, as I already stated. However on Jensen's Krisdisk Chapter 4, page 6 an almost identical Wrongko is atributed to Tegal/Cirebon.

A very similar Wrongko to that in the second picture in the post #37 is attributed to Cirebon by Hidayat.

The Wrongko on the wright side picture in your post #30 would be attributed to Tegal by the most people.

I suppose, there are a lot of opinions and guesses about the provenience of different Wrongko forms before the beginning of 18. cent. (particularly old Ladrang forms) and no absolute clarity. I suppose also, this clarity is inexistent and so impossibly to reach.

ganjawulung · 2nd June 2010, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

I am fully aware the top picture in my post #37 would be regarded by most people as Wrongko from Banten, as I already stated. However on Jensen's Krisdisk Chapter 4, page 6 an almost identical Wrongko is atributed to Tegal/Cirebon.

A very similar Wrongko to that in the second picture in the post #37 is attributed to Cirebon by Hidayat.

The Wrongko on the wright side picture in your post #30 would be attributed to Tegal by the most people.

I suppose, there are a lot of opinions and guesses about the provenience of different Wrongko forms before the beginning of 18. cent. (particularly old Ladrang forms) and no absolute clarity. I suppose also, this clarity is inexistent and so impossibly to reach.

So Gustav,

I just follow the example from the Museum Gajah (The National Museum) of Jakarta. It was displayed some keris Banten like images below. You may compare yourself the picture..

The third picture, is an example of Tegal warangka with "rajamala" hilt

GANJAWULUNG

Gustav · 2nd June 2010, 10:27 PM

Dear Ganjawulung,

in my post #37 I wrote : The pictures are keris from Banten (?) and Cirebon (?).

I never said, the sheath in question isn't from Banten, more the opposite is the case.

I think, there is no need to point out, which from them possibly is from Banten, after the pictures in your previous post.

The use of interrogation marks in my post wasn't there, becouse I would like them so much. Using them I would like just to show, there could be many opinions (which, of course, are not equally good founded) regarding the provenienence of the sheaths in these pictures.

BluErf · 2nd June 2010, 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DAHenkel

That sheath is definitely 100% Pattani so it looks like you have gotten yourself a composite piece with a (likely) Madura blade and hilt.

This thread though raises the very relevant connection between the North Coast of Java and the origins of the keris in the Northeast Peninsula. There is definitely a strong connection - all you have to do is scan through Karsten Jensen's book. The familial relationship is sometimes striking!

Now Detlef, all you gotta do is keep your eyes peeled for an early Pattani blade and a bangsa agung or earlier style coteng hilt.

What traits make this a Pattani sheath? We don't see any coteng sheaths like this anywhere else.

Sajen · 2nd June 2010, 10:44 PM

Hello all,

like I mentioned in my post #38 this sheat is still a great mystery for my person since my handled Pattani keris is very marginal. So my "knowledge" is taken from pictures in books and from the forum as well from other online pages. And all sheaths I have seen there have been worked in good or very good skill. But this sheath isn't executed with a good skill. I will show you what I mean in pictures separate. A second point is the used wood, it's a very light wood with a unremarkable grain and from blonde natural colour. The weight is 99 gram.

Besides from this there are two repairs. The front leaf of sampir is missing and replaced from some sort of body filler. And the badly repaired break behind the batang.
Now the comments to the pictures which shows the "mistakes" from the carving. When you look to the pic 6 in post # 38 you can see that the tulang daun are not straight. At the same pic you can see that the caping points are not in direct opposite. The carving of the mata ketiga siva are not very well carved (pic 4 & 5).
But my feeling is like Dave and Moshah mentioned that it is a Pattani sheath, look for example the tips of sampir.
But I am with BluErf, which traits let it be a Pattani sheat?

Best regards,

Detlef

BluErf · 12th June 2010, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

What traits make this a Pattani sheath? We don't see any coteng sheaths like this anywhere else.

To answer my own question, Dave and I just came across this picture of 1 very old coteng in our friend, Paul De Souza's collection, which was collected in Thailand (Bangkok). This more or less shows that Detlef's keris is a very early coteng form.

max · 12th June 2010, 08:49 AM

As you can see, my sheath as several small superfacial holls. One is still filled with. Tin ?? Or lead ?? Its only on the front side of the wrangka. I always asked myself of there was a perticuliar meaning for this. Because we are going so deep in this wrangka, maybay someone have some ideas or suggestions. I am not familair with this fenomen in java.

Sajen · 13th June 2010, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max

As you can see, my sheath as several small superfacial holls. One is still filled with. Tin ?? Or lead ?? Its only on the front side of the wrangka. I always asked myself of there was a perticuliar meaning for this. Because we are going so deep in this wrangka, maybay someone have some ideas or suggestions. I am not familair with this fenomen in java.

Maybe someone tried to fill the holes with body filler?

Sajen · 13th June 2010, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

To answer my own question, Dave and I just came across this picture of 1 very old coteng in our friend, Paul De Souza's collection, which was collected in Thailand (Bangkok). This more or less shows that Detlef's keris is a very early coteng form.

Hello Kai Wee,

thank you for clarify the origin of my sheat. This answer also the question from Moshah about the third eye of shiva since it look on Paul de Souza's sheath very similar.
One question: is the nose from the hilt by Paul de Souza's keris old broken or is the hilt still complete?

Now it is like Dave write in #39, all I need is a Pattani blade and a fitting hilt.

BluErf · 13th June 2010, 03:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Kai Wee,

thank you for clarify the origin of my sheat. This answer also the question from Moshah about the third eye of shiva since it look on Paul de Souza's sheath very similar.
One question: is the nose from the hilt by Paul de Souza's keris old broken or is the hilt still complete?

Now it is like Dave write in #39, all I need is a Pattani blade and a fitting hilt.

The hilt has a broken nose, so we can only imagine what it looks like complete. The nose probably would not be as long as latter-day coteng hilts, or it would look aesthetically funny, imho.

Sajen · 14th June 2010, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

The hilt has a broken nose, so we can only imagine what it looks like complete. The nose probably would not be as long as latter-day coteng hilts, or it would look aesthetically funny, imho.

Anyway, it's a very exceptional hilt. Thank you for showing.

max · 5th June 2010, 11:05 AM

The same wrangka,

Sorry I am new to the forum and had some difficulties with the pictures. I had to adjust them so the fit the forum size. I have this wrangka for a long time. I bought the keris in the past from an englisch seller. As you can see, the tips are broken off. Nice from this forum now I have a pretty good idea how it schould look like with the tipp !!!

Rick · 5th June 2010, 04:38 PM

Do you have a picture to show us Max ?

Sajen · 5th June 2010, 08:44 PM

The question is if it is possible to have a sheath from Pattani with such a light wood and not exactly carvings? All other sheaths I have seen from there have had better carvings and other wood, i.e. more hard wood.

Gustav · 6th June 2010, 03:49 PM

Sajen, Max have put pictures of the sheath in he's old post.

Here a picture from a museum in Venice:

Sajen · 6th June 2010, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gustav

Sajen, Max have put pictures of the sheath in he's old post.

Here a picture from a museum in Venice:

Hello Gustav,

the sheath from Max is very similar. My guess or better hope was from beginning that it is a Pattani sheat (look #5 same thread).

Best regards,

Detlef

tunggulametung · 9th June 2010, 03:40 AM

Hello all,

This could be originate anywhere within Nusantara, we know too little about the past. Maybe even Madura own these style in the past, we never know. But then the style develop very well in Pattani (north to Malaysia

) and in my opinion achieve its highest form there.
Attached are similar styles for comparison.

Sajen · 6th June 2010, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max

The same wrangka,

Sorry I am new to the forum and had some difficulties with the pictures. I had to adjust them so the fit the forum size. I have this wrangka for a long time. I bought the keris in the past from an englisch seller. As you can see, the tips are broken off. Nice from this forum now I have a pretty good idea how it schould look like with the tipp !!!

Hello Max,

first of all welcome to the forum.

Your sheath look indeed very similar apart from the missing tips. Please can you tell us if the sheat is also from light wood, i.e. balsa wood? And a picture from the blade if you don't mind?

I am planning to restore the sheat since it is ugly painted and the break good visible.

Best regards,

Detlef

max · 8th June 2010, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sajen

Hello Max,

first of all welcome to the forum.

Your sheath look indeed very similar apart from the missing tips. Please can you tell us if the sheat is also from light wood, i.e. balsa wood? And a picture from the blade if you don't mind?

I am planning to restore the sheat since it is ugly painted and the break good visible.

Best regards,

Detlef

Hello Detlef,

The sheath is indeed of light wood, I think is the same wood they use for your sheath. It has the same structure and same glance, although pictures always difference a little bit from the realty. But I recognice it as very identical. I have given it some though too, to led the sheath restored. But it never came so far. maybay now its a good time. You give me some good ideas about the missing tipps. I think its at least worth it !!! Here are the pics you aksed for.

Sajen · 9th June 2010, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max

Hello Detlef,

The sheath is indeed of light wood, I think is the same wood they use for your sheath. It has the same structure and same glance, although pictures always difference a little bit from the realty. But I recognice it as very identical. I have given it some though too, to led the sheath restored. But it never came so far. maybay now its a good time. You give me some good ideas about the missing tipps. I think its at least worth it !!! Here are the pics you aksed for.

Hello Max,

thank's for the additional pictures. Agree that the sheaths are very similar. The blade seems not original to the sheat alike by my assemble.

Best regards,

Detlef

31st May 2010, 06:34 PM	#1
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,270	Today I received the keris and this sheath is a real mystery for me. It's carved from a very lightweight wood and not very fine executed but definitively with a good age. There are unfortunately two old repairs. The carvings are not symmetric. The width down from the Tampingan are 30 mm (1,18 inch). Here some first pictures: Attached Images

12th June 2010, 08:49 AM	#10
max Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 12	question As you can see, my sheath as several small superfacial holls. One is still filled with. Tin ?? Or lead ?? Its only on the front side of the wrangka. I always asked myself of there was a perticuliar meaning for this. Because we are going so deep in this wrangka, maybay someone have some ideas or suggestions. I am not familair with this fenomen in java. Attached Images

5th June 2010, 11:05 AM	#15
max Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 12	sheath The same wrangka, Sorry I am new to the forum and had some difficulties with the pictures. I had to adjust them so the fit the forum size. I have this wrangka for a long time. I bought the keris in the past from an englisch seller. As you can see, the tips are broken off. Nice from this forum now I have a pretty good idea how it schould look like with the tipp !!! Attached Images Last edited by max; 6th June 2010 at 02:26 AM.

6th June 2010, 03:49 PM	#18
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	Sajen, Max have put pictures of the sheath in he's old post. Here a picture from a museum in Venice: Attached Images

9th June 2010, 03:40 AM	#20
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Hello all, This could be originate anywhere within Nusantara, we know too little about the past. Maybe even Madura own these style in the past, we never know. But then the style develop very well in Pattani (north to Malaysia ) and in my opinion achieve its highest form there. Attached are similar styles for comparison. Attached Images

1st June 2010, 12:04 AM	#2
DAHenkel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 125	That sheath is definitely 100% Pattani so it looks like you have gotten yourself a composite piece with a (likely) Madura blade and hilt. This thread though raises the very relevant connection between the North Coast of Java and the origins of the keris in the Northeast Peninsula. There is definitely a strong connection - all you have to do is scan through Karsten Jensen's book. The familial relationship is sometimes striking! Now Detlef, all you gotta do is keep your eyes peeled for an early Pattani blade and a bangsa agung or earlier style coteng hilt.

2nd June 2010, 01:27 AM	#3
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Cirebon Daun For comparison, Side view of two Cirebon warangkas, and upper view of them. Gustav post #37, IMHO is clearly images of Banten warangka... GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

2nd June 2010, 10:27 PM	#6
Gustav Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,295	Dear Ganjawulung, in my post #37 I wrote : The pictures are keris from Banten (?) and Cirebon (?). I never said, the sheath in question isn't from Banten, more the opposite is the case. I think, there is no need to point out, which from them possibly is from Banten, after the pictures in your previous post. The use of interrogation marks in my post wasn't there, becouse I would like them so much. Using them I would like just to show, there could be many opinions (which, of course, are not equally good founded) regarding the provenienence of the sheaths in these pictures.

2nd June 2010, 10:44 PM	#8
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,270	Hello all, like I mentioned in my post #38 this sheat is still a great mystery for my person since my handled Pattani keris is very marginal. So my "knowledge" is taken from pictures in books and from the forum as well from other online pages. And all sheaths I have seen there have been worked in good or very good skill. But this sheath isn't executed with a good skill. I will show you what I mean in pictures separate. A second point is the used wood, it's a very light wood with a unremarkable grain and from blonde natural colour. The weight is 99 gram. Besides from this there are two repairs. The front leaf of sampir is missing and replaced from some sort of body filler. And the badly repaired break behind the batang. Now the comments to the pictures which shows the "mistakes" from the carving. When you look to the pic 6 in post # 38 you can see that the tulang daun are not straight. At the same pic you can see that the caping points are not in direct opposite. The carving of the mata ketiga siva are not very well carved (pic 4 & 5). But my feeling is like Dave and Moshah mentioned that it is a Pattani sheath, look for example the tips of sampir. But I am with BluErf, which traits let it be a Pattani sheat? Best regards, Detlef

5th June 2010, 04:38 PM	#16
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,347	Do you have a picture to show us Max ?

5th June 2010, 08:44 PM	#17
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,270	The question is if it is possible to have a sheath from Pattani with such a light wood and not exactly carvings? All other sheaths I have seen from there have had better carvings and other wood, i.e. more hard wood.