MAORI SHORT CLUBS (PATA FORM)

VANDOO · 27th May 2010, 04:49 PM

A PICTURE OF BOTH ENDS OF THE TAIAHA (SPEAR END AND STRIKING END) AND A PIC. OF A WARRIORS HAKA

fearn · 27th May 2010, 07:20 PM

Hi Vandoo,

It's possible that the pata was a tongue, but I think something else is going on there.

For one thing, I remember that the archeologists dug up a whalebone pata somewhere around Tahiti, so we can argue that it's an old (but useful) design, sort of like the leaf-shaped knife blade.

The bigger issue is material. For whatever reason, we don't really see stone spearheads in Polynesian or Micronesian culture, except on Easter Island where they were an independent development. I'm not sure why this is the case, but I'm willing to bet it's that there's a fundamental problem with grinding sharp stone points out of basalt, jade, or whalebone (same process, different materials).

Since a pata is supposed to have a sharpish edge and they thrust with it, I bet that the axehead-like edge is a compromise that is effective when blunt, and more effective when sharp, especially when you target it properly. It's also good for chopping/smashing, on the same principle.

I also recall that some tribe went to war to capture a mere a one point, and they were named too. I don't know the details, but they were so valuable that I would be surprised if it wasn't the case.

Best,

F

VANDOO · 29th May 2010, 05:36 AM

YOU ARE CORRECT THAT MOST OF THE PACIFIC ISLANDS DIDN'T HAVE THE PROPER ROCK THAT WOULD FLAKE AND ALL SHAPEING HAD TO BE DONE BY SPLITTING ,CUTTING AND GRINDING. LAVA, BASALT,SERPENTINE AND IN SOME AREAS GRANITE WERE THE ONES MOST COMMONLY FOUND. MOST STONE CUTTING TOOLS WERE IN THE COMMON CELT FORM AND WERE HAFTED, I WILL SHOW A MAORI JADE EXAMPLE. EXAMPLES OF GROUND POINTS ASIAN GROUND SLATE DAGGERS. ESKIMO GROUND SLATE ULU KNIFE. AND A OLD NEW GUINEA STONE AX HEAD LIKELY FROM MOUNT HAGEN (IT IS THE CLOSEST IN SHAPE AND SIZE I CAN COME TO A MAORI PATA)

NO DOUBT THE PATA SHAPE SPREAD THRUOUT POLYNESIA THERE IS A WOODEN FORM WITH A ROUNDED TIP FOUND ON EASTER ISLAND (SEE PIC. OF 18 INCH LONG EXAMPLE). THATS A LONG WAY FROM NEW ZEALAND OR TAHITI. GROUND SLATE WEAPONS, CEREMONIAL OBJECTS AND JEWLRY WERE FOUND IN NORTH AMERICA AS WELL.
THE CONJECTURE THAT THE PATA MAY REPRESENT THE TONGUE WAS A CONTROVERSIAL COMMENT TO SEE IF THERE WERE ANY LURKERS OR MEMBERS WITH A LOT OF KNOWLEGE IN THE FIELD FOR A REBUTTEL. EVIDENTLY NOT

VANDOO · 9th August 2014, 03:45 AM

HERE IS A MODERN MERE MADE AS AN ARTISTIC PIECE AND BASED ON A OLD POLYNESIAN LEGEND. THE ARTIST FASHIONED IT FROM JADE AND MADE IT WITH AN OCTOPUS ON IT. THE GIVEN LEGEND WAS OF A LEGENDARY POLYNESIAN NAVIGATOR NAMED KUPE WHO DISCOVERED NEW ZEALAND WHILE HE WAS CHASING A TROUBLESOME WHEKE (OCTOPUS). THE OCTOPUS HAD BEEN EATING ALL THE FISH IN KUPE'S HOMELAND OF HAWAIKI. THE OCTOPUS WAS FINALLY CONQUERED WITH A PADDLE. THE MERE IS 11.5 INCHES LONG X 4 IN. WIDE AND 1.25IN. THICK MADE OF NEW ZEALAND JADE I BELIEVE IT TO BE A TYPE REFERED TO AS FLOWER JADE AND IS USED IN JEWLRY AND HAS VARIOUS COLORS AND PATTERNS. IT IS NOT CURRENTLY FOR SALE BUT I AM NOT SURE IF IT HAS BEEN SOLD OR SIMPLY TAKEN OFF THE MARKET. I THINK IT IS A UNUSUAL EXAMPLE OF A MODERN ETHNOGRAPHIC ART PIECE MADE IN NEW ZEALAND. IT IS CALLED KUPE'S MERE I DON'T KNOW IF THE LEGEND IS A OLD ONE OR MODERN ONE BUT IT MAKES A GOOD STORY

Iliad · 9th August 2014, 10:18 PM

Patu, not Pata.

Best,
Brian

VANDOO · 18th February 2016, 08:28 PM

http://www.new-guinea-tribal-art.com...weapons-maori/

I found this short reference that is good and covers a bit more than I have. you are right its PATU but I have no way of going back and correcting it.
ONE REFERENCE STATES THAT THE PATU WAS MADE OF STONE OR WHALE BONE BUT NEVER WOOD.THERE ARE MANY WOODEN ONES AROUND NOW SO PERHAPS THEY ARE OF MORE RECENT ORIGINS. SOME OTHER CLUBS WERE MADE OF WOOD BUT NOT STONE AS WELL. THIS INFORMATION MAY BE ABOUT THE OLD PRE-CONTACT TRADITIONS FOR MAKING WEAPONS. OF COURSE IN A ARCHELOGICAL DIG MOST WOODEN ITEMS WILL BE LONG GONE.

josh stout · 18th February 2016, 10:28 PM

The tongue idea may be speculation, but it is interesting. It is certainly not uncommon to see Chinese and other steel weapons with the blade coming out of the open mouthed head forming the guard.

I wonder about the shape based on the long triangle of the original stone "handaxe" that served as models for later celts. Louis Leaky speculated that some handaxes might have been designed for throwing. If so, they would have been held from the tip to put the greater mass of the wide end on the end of a lever arm. The kawas of Vanuatu was a sort of stone throwing stick, but the oldest versions were basically stone hand axes in one piece with a stone handle. I wonder if the patu didn't start as something of the sort. They seem too high value to throw around, but I could imagine that one would have stopping power as a close quarter missile. Slings and spears propelled by cords were excellent Maori distance projectiles, so perhaps in later use they became solely high status clubs.

Well, it is fun to speculate...

27th May 2010, 04:49 PM	#1
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	A PICTURE OF BOTH ENDS OF THE TAIAHA (SPEAR END AND STRIKING END) AND A PIC. OF A WARRIORS HAKA Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 27th May 2010 at 06:08 PM.

29th May 2010, 05:36 AM	#3
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	YOU ARE CORRECT THAT MOST OF THE PACIFIC ISLANDS DIDN'T HAVE THE PROPER ROCK THAT WOULD FLAKE AND ALL SHAPEING HAD TO BE DONE BY SPLITTING ,CUTTING AND GRINDING. LAVA, BASALT,SERPENTINE AND IN SOME AREAS GRANITE WERE THE ONES MOST COMMONLY FOUND. MOST STONE CUTTING TOOLS WERE IN THE COMMON CELT FORM AND WERE HAFTED, I WILL SHOW A MAORI JADE EXAMPLE. EXAMPLES OF GROUND POINTS ASIAN GROUND SLATE DAGGERS. ESKIMO GROUND SLATE ULU KNIFE. AND A OLD NEW GUINEA STONE AX HEAD LIKELY FROM MOUNT HAGEN (IT IS THE CLOSEST IN SHAPE AND SIZE I CAN COME TO A MAORI PATA) NO DOUBT THE PATA SHAPE SPREAD THRUOUT POLYNESIA THERE IS A WOODEN FORM WITH A ROUNDED TIP FOUND ON EASTER ISLAND (SEE PIC. OF 18 INCH LONG EXAMPLE). THATS A LONG WAY FROM NEW ZEALAND OR TAHITI. GROUND SLATE WEAPONS, CEREMONIAL OBJECTS AND JEWLRY WERE FOUND IN NORTH AMERICA AS WELL. THE CONJECTURE THAT THE PATA MAY REPRESENT THE TONGUE WAS A CONTROVERSIAL COMMENT TO SEE IF THERE WERE ANY LURKERS OR MEMBERS WITH A LOT OF KNOWLEGE IN THE FIELD FOR A REBUTTEL. EVIDENTLY NOT Attached Images

9th August 2014, 03:45 AM	#4
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	HERE IS A MODERN MERE MADE AS AN ARTISTIC PIECE AND BASED ON A OLD POLYNESIAN LEGEND. THE ARTIST FASHIONED IT FROM JADE AND MADE IT WITH AN OCTOPUS ON IT. THE GIVEN LEGEND WAS OF A LEGENDARY POLYNESIAN NAVIGATOR NAMED KUPE WHO DISCOVERED NEW ZEALAND WHILE HE WAS CHASING A TROUBLESOME WHEKE (OCTOPUS). THE OCTOPUS HAD BEEN EATING ALL THE FISH IN KUPE'S HOMELAND OF HAWAIKI. THE OCTOPUS WAS FINALLY CONQUERED WITH A PADDLE. THE MERE IS 11.5 INCHES LONG X 4 IN. WIDE AND 1.25IN. THICK MADE OF NEW ZEALAND JADE I BELIEVE IT TO BE A TYPE REFERED TO AS FLOWER JADE AND IS USED IN JEWLRY AND HAS VARIOUS COLORS AND PATTERNS. IT IS NOT CURRENTLY FOR SALE BUT I AM NOT SURE IF IT HAS BEEN SOLD OR SIMPLY TAKEN OFF THE MARKET. I THINK IT IS A UNUSUAL EXAMPLE OF A MODERN ETHNOGRAPHIC ART PIECE MADE IN NEW ZEALAND. IT IS CALLED KUPE'S MERE I DON'T KNOW IF THE LEGEND IS A OLD ONE OR MODERN ONE BUT IT MAKES A GOOD STORY Attached Images Last edited by VANDOO; 9th August 2014 at 03:59 AM.

9th August 2014, 10:18 PM	#5
Iliad Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 187	Maori short club Patu, not Pata. Best, Brian

18th February 2016, 08:28 PM	#6
VANDOO (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: OKLAHOMA, USA Posts: 3,138	http://www.new-guinea-tribal-art.com...weapons-maori/ I found this short reference that is good and covers a bit more than I have. you are right its PATU but I have no way of going back and correcting it. ONE REFERENCE STATES THAT THE PATU WAS MADE OF STONE OR WHALE BONE BUT NEVER WOOD.THERE ARE MANY WOODEN ONES AROUND NOW SO PERHAPS THEY ARE OF MORE RECENT ORIGINS. SOME OTHER CLUBS WERE MADE OF WOOD BUT NOT STONE AS WELL. THIS INFORMATION MAY BE ABOUT THE OLD PRE-CONTACT TRADITIONS FOR MAKING WEAPONS. OF COURSE IN A ARCHELOGICAL DIG MOST WOODEN ITEMS WILL BE LONG GONE. Last edited by VANDOO; 18th February 2016 at 10:58 PM.

27th May 2010, 07:20 PM	#2
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Vandoo, It's possible that the pata was a tongue, but I think something else is going on there. For one thing, I remember that the archeologists dug up a whalebone pata somewhere around Tahiti, so we can argue that it's an old (but useful) design, sort of like the leaf-shaped knife blade. The bigger issue is material. For whatever reason, we don't really see stone spearheads in Polynesian or Micronesian culture, except on Easter Island where they were an independent development. I'm not sure why this is the case, but I'm willing to bet it's that there's a fundamental problem with grinding sharp stone points out of basalt, jade, or whalebone (same process, different materials). Since a pata is supposed to have a sharpish edge and they thrust with it, I bet that the axehead-like edge is a compromise that is effective when blunt, and more effective when sharp, especially when you target it properly. It's also good for chopping/smashing, on the same principle. I also recall that some tribe went to war to capture a mere a one point, and they were named too. I don't know the details, but they were so valuable that I would be surprised if it wasn't the case. Best, F

18th February 2016, 10:28 PM	#7
josh stout Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 407	The tongue idea may be speculation, but it is interesting. It is certainly not uncommon to see Chinese and other steel weapons with the blade coming out of the open mouthed head forming the guard. I wonder about the shape based on the long triangle of the original stone "handaxe" that served as models for later celts. Louis Leaky speculated that some handaxes might have been designed for throwing. If so, they would have been held from the tip to put the greater mass of the wide end on the end of a lever arm. The kawas of Vanuatu was a sort of stone throwing stick, but the oldest versions were basically stone hand axes in one piece with a stone handle. I wonder if the patu didn't start as something of the sort. They seem too high value to throw around, but I could imagine that one would have stopping power as a close quarter missile. Slings and spears propelled by cords were excellent Maori distance projectiles, so perhaps in later use they became solely high status clubs. Well, it is fun to speculate...