comments on this barung lamenation?

tom hyle · 4th June 2005, 02:16 PM

Rick, curiuoser and curiouser; three layers to the spine you say? And from the flat it appears to be an applied spine...........?..........
I'll give another crack to what I was trying to ask though, as I've recieved no input. On shandigan barongs is the edge bevel also hollow ground, flat, or humped? If it is hollow ground, this puts them in a category with other E Asian hollow ground swords I've seen, where it seems to be more a matter of utilizing/showing off a particular technology for surface finishing than to be of always practical concern. For instance, the hollowed back on Japanese knives is often cited as to ease sharpening (less surface to grind away each time), but quite often every surface of these knives have the same hollow grind; it is simply the tool/method used to finish surfaces. In such instance, in fact, the hollow grind somewhat counteracts any sturdiness from obtuseness in the edge angle. So having explained (?) all that, what I wonder is, is the shandigan feature more a grooving of wedge section blade, or is it more like a reinforced edge on a wedge section blade, or is it consistant? You don't need an angle guage; much can be determined with a straight edge. Lay the straight edge across the edge bevel: Whether it is hollowed, flat, or humped will be instantly obvious if it was obscure before. Now, with the straight edge "indexed" to (ie laid flat on) the edge bevel, extend it out to the spine of the blade. Does it cross and touch the spine, indicating the same edge angle as a wedge section blade? Or is it considerably off the spine, indicating an angle that is more obtuse than a full width wedge? Or does it hit the spine where the spine rises, indicating a finer edge than a wedge section blade? This is a simple and useful technique. Rick could've used it (with two straight edges; I often use pencils; it ain't rocket science), BTW, to tell if the cutting area on his kirach is truly flat or slightly wedged; no caliper neccessary (forgive me for not explaining it at the time.....). Try it with sabres; it's fun and interesting. So, what I wonder, and I imagine others might find it interesting, is: Is the shandigan property essentially a reinforced edge, a hollowed flat, a simple expression/result of cross-blade grinding, is it even consistant, or what?..............if we laid cross sections of shandigan and nonshandigan barongs over each other, what would be the comparison?......

Rick · 4th June 2005, 03:12 PM

Tom , I have no experience with shandigan barungs not having one in my collection nor even seen one in real life .
Here's what I can tell you about my 'regular' barung ; the blade is slightly wedge shaped (very slightly) in cross section . The sides or flanks if you will are flat except for the lumpiness from the smith's forging . The blade does not swell out toward the edge in cross section and the edge is a convex curve to its apex .

One last picture :

tom hyle · 4th June 2005, 04:43 PM

Rick, one thing about the nice etch job is that the clear layer lines obscure/overwhelm the bevels of the blade somewhat, visually; are you saying there is a wide secondary bevel for the entire length of the edge? I'm going to reverse myself and say the applied spine may be very interesting, and maybe even it and the edge were put on as one, the way t Obach said; I'm all at sea now with this piece

Any chance of a photo of the spine? Is the layering visible at the spine fairly consistant over the length?

Rick · 4th June 2005, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tom hyle

Rick, one thing about the nice etch job is that the clear layer lines obscure/overwhelm the bevels of the blade somewhat, visually; are you saying there is a wide secondary bevel for the entire length of the edge? I'm going to reverse myself and say the applied spine may be very interesting, and maybe even it and the edge were put on as one, the way t Obach said; I'm all at sea now with this piece

Any chance of a photo of the spine? Is the layering visible at the spine fairly consistant over the length?

If a bevel is a flat angle or 'facet' then there is no secondary bevel .
The curve down to the apex of the edge starts about 1" in .
The spine shows a pretty consistent tripartite layer arrangement .
I'll try to get a photo but may not succeed .
Stay tuned ........

Federico · 4th June 2005, 05:42 PM

Tom

Shandigan barongs, the edge is more like someone re-inforced by adding steel to the cutting edge on a regular barong, vs hollow grinding it out. The normal part starts as a regular flat grind, but then about half an inch from the edge it poofs out into a new thick edge which is convex. Really no hollow grinding done at all, and by my eye it would be forged in, trying to flat grind all the material with hand tools would just be way to time consuming and a waste of steel. Particularly where the reinforced edge meets the normal flat on mine, it is somewhat rounded (not a good word but all I can think of right now), not consistent with a grinding.

Rick · 4th June 2005, 08:18 PM

Best I could do Tom .
Spunjer , could we get a shot of the spine on your barung ?

Spunjer · 4th June 2005, 11:55 PM

not exactly sure what you're asking about shandigans, tom, so i took some pictures of the blade from a different angles, if this help you any further. as for the spine rick, this is the best i can do. hope this helps.

4th June 2005, 03:12 PM	#2
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,371	Tom , I have no experience with shandigan barungs not having one in my collection nor even seen one in real life . Here's what I can tell you about my 'regular' barung ; the blade is slightly wedge shaped (very slightly) in cross section . The sides or flanks if you will are flat except for the lumpiness from the smith's forging . The blade does not swell out toward the edge in cross section and the edge is a convex curve to its apex . One last picture : Attached Images

4th June 2005, 08:18 PM	#6
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,371	Spine Shot Best I could do Tom . Spunjer , could we get a shot of the spine on your barung ? Attached Images

4th June 2005, 11:55 PM	#7
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	not exactly sure what you're asking about shandigans, tom, so i took some pictures of the blade from a different angles, if this help you any further. as for the spine rick, this is the best i can do. hope this helps. Attached Images

4th June 2005, 02:16 PM	#1
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Rick, curiuoser and curiouser; three layers to the spine you say? And from the flat it appears to be an applied spine...........?.......... I'll give another crack to what I was trying to ask though, as I've recieved no input. On shandigan barongs is the edge bevel also hollow ground, flat, or humped? If it is hollow ground, this puts them in a category with other E Asian hollow ground swords I've seen, where it seems to be more a matter of utilizing/showing off a particular technology for surface finishing than to be of always practical concern. For instance, the hollowed back on Japanese knives is often cited as to ease sharpening (less surface to grind away each time), but quite often every surface of these knives have the same hollow grind; it is simply the tool/method used to finish surfaces. In such instance, in fact, the hollow grind somewhat counteracts any sturdiness from obtuseness in the edge angle. So having explained (?) all that, what I wonder is, is the shandigan feature more a grooving of wedge section blade, or is it more like a reinforced edge on a wedge section blade, or is it consistant? You don't need an angle guage; much can be determined with a straight edge. Lay the straight edge across the edge bevel: Whether it is hollowed, flat, or humped will be instantly obvious if it was obscure before. Now, with the straight edge "indexed" to (ie laid flat on) the edge bevel, extend it out to the spine of the blade. Does it cross and touch the spine, indicating the same edge angle as a wedge section blade? Or is it considerably off the spine, indicating an angle that is more obtuse than a full width wedge? Or does it hit the spine where the spine rises, indicating a finer edge than a wedge section blade? This is a simple and useful technique. Rick could've used it (with two straight edges; I often use pencils; it ain't rocket science), BTW, to tell if the cutting area on his kirach is truly flat or slightly wedged; no caliper neccessary (forgive me for not explaining it at the time.....). Try it with sabres; it's fun and interesting. So, what I wonder, and I imagine others might find it interesting, is: Is the shandigan property essentially a reinforced edge, a hollowed flat, a simple expression/result of cross-blade grinding, is it even consistant, or what?..............if we laid cross sections of shandigan and nonshandigan barongs over each other, what would be the comparison?......

4th June 2005, 04:43 PM	#3
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	Rick, one thing about the nice etch job is that the clear layer lines obscure/overwhelm the bevels of the blade somewhat, visually; are you saying there is a wide secondary bevel for the entire length of the edge? I'm going to reverse myself and say the applied spine may be very interesting, and maybe even it and the edge were put on as one, the way t Obach said; I'm all at sea now with this piece Any chance of a photo of the spine? Is the layering visible at the spine fairly consistant over the length?

4th June 2005, 05:42 PM	#5
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	Tom Shandigan barongs, the edge is more like someone re-inforced by adding steel to the cutting edge on a regular barong, vs hollow grinding it out. The normal part starts as a regular flat grind, but then about half an inch from the edge it poofs out into a new thick edge which is convex. Really no hollow grinding done at all, and by my eye it would be forged in, trying to flat grind all the material with hand tools would just be way to time consuming and a waste of steel. Particularly where the reinforced edge meets the normal flat on mine, it is somewhat rounded (not a good word but all I can think of right now), not consistent with a grinding.