PALEMBANG HILT AND KERIS

ganjawulung · 16th May 2010, 03:45 AM

Thanks Rick for the advice,

I would try to be brave to unfix it... but step by step. Maybe I would try to "steam" it first, not to heat it in direct flame...

@sajen, yes Detlef, it has a Palembang warangka. But still in repairement of the "gandar" side, broken a bit. Sure, later I will post the foto of it after it is ready..

Thanks, for all the advice.

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 16th May 2010, 04:01 AM

The heat from a candle or a small kero lamp (senthir) will definitely not hurt the blade.

Yes, it will get very dirty, but the soot just washes off with turps, and you need to clean and stain the blade anyway.

I would not go anywhere near it with steam, because unlike a direct heat, the steam is not controllable, and you do not want that hilt to get bathed in steam.

I've removed all sorts of hilts with heat, as I describe, not just keris hilts, but pedangs, tombaks, badiks, western custom knives, old western cutlery --- all sorts of blades from all sorts of hilts with all sorts of adhesives, including modern epoxies. Because I've had so much experience I usually use a propane torch when I'm at home, but I will never recommend that to somebody new at this. A candle or a little kero lamp will do exactly the same job, its just dirtier --- which doesn't matter at all, and slower, which also doesn't matter.

Afterthought:- even if you did get the blade really hot, you've got to take up to straw-blue to draw the temper from heat-treated steel, and this part of a keris blade is not heat-treated anyway, its still soft, so there's no temper to draw. Don't forget:- you're only heating the sorsoran. You just can't get it to this sort of heat with a candle. Direct heat will not hurt it.

ganjawulung · 16th May 2010, 09:11 AM

Not succeeded yet..
I've tried the first way (1) steamed the blade upon a pot of water (of course, it was an unused pot) for more than an hour -- hot, cold, then hot, and cold etc. Not moved at all. And (2) I took a big risk by heating the blade upon a small flame of kitchen gas -- hot, cold, and hot, cold. Not succeeded too... Very "stubborn"... (image below)

Then, I let it as it is again. And thinking of trying to clean the blade without submerging the hilt, of course... Still thinking how to do it.

GANJAWULUNG

A. G. Maisey · 16th May 2010, 11:16 AM

If I owned this keris I would not be brave enough to use either of these methods, and I cannot see how sufficient heat could be applied to the blade with either method to get the tang hot enough to encourage the tang to come free.

Buy a candle.

Sajen · 16th May 2010, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

If I owned this keris I would not be brave enough to use either of these methods, and I cannot see how sufficient heat could be applied to the blade with either method to get the tang hot enough to encourage the tang to come free.

Buy a candle.

Agree, don't capitulate.

Moshah · 17th May 2010, 02:54 AM

Wow, very risky! I really hope you to be careful

I just wonder was pak Ganja's hilt is the one called "palembang hulu burung" or was the attached pix is?

What is the difference between both (except the material difference)? I can see some similar carvings pattern there, but the style is not the same...

thanks in advance pals for letting me know...

ganjawulung · 23rd May 2010, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moshah

I just wonder was pak Ganja's hilt is the one called "palembang hulu burung" or was the attached pix is?

What is the difference between both (except the material difference)? I can see some similar carvings pattern there, but the style is not the same...

Dear Moshah,
Honestly, I am not the expert on this. Just collecting. I think Shahrial (Alamshah) could explain it well.

GANJAWULUNG

ganjawulung · 17th May 2010, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Buy a candle.

Not succeeded yet, Alan. Not moved at all...

GANJAWULUNG

ganjawulung · 23rd May 2010, 01:59 AM

Thanks Alan, and all,

The hilt is already unfixed, and I've cleaned the blade too....

GANJAWULUNG

Jean · 26th May 2010, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ganjawulung

Not succeeded yet..
I've tried the first way (1) steamed the blade upon a pot of water (of course, it was an unused pot) for more than an hour -- hot, cold, then hot, and cold etc. Not moved at all. And (2) I took a big risk by heating the blade upon a small flame of kitchen gas -- hot, cold, and hot, cold. Not succeeded too... Very "stubborn"... (image below)

Then, I let it as it is again. And thinking of trying to clean the blade without submerging the hilt, of course... Still thinking how to do it.

GANJAWULUNG

Hello Ganjawulung,
I was facing the same problem as yourself with 2 Bugis blades needing warangan and fitted with large ivory hilts strongly stuck to the peksi. I tried in vain to loose them by heating with a candle or small gas lighter and it did not work (I was probably not patient enough).
Today I decided to test a new strategy, namely to insert and heat the whole blade into our kitchen oven adjusted on "rotating heat" to ensure uniform temperature and set at 120°C, and it worked very well for the 2 hilts without any damage. The hilts were glued with traditional dark brown resin and not epoxy glue of course. It took me about 10 minutes to release the first hilt, and 5 for the second as the oven was still hot...
The advantage of this method is that the hilt is progressively and uniformely heated at the desired temperature unlike with a flame (ivory is a poorly conductive material), so there is less risk of cracking it... My concern was that the peksi would expand more than the hole with heat and could cause a crack to the hilt, but it fortunately did not occur and I feel fully confident to repeat the experience if needed.
Best regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 27th May 2010, 12:00 AM

You're a braver man than I am Jean.

In respect of pesi expansion causing a crack in the hilt:-

over a + 50 year period I have removed more hilts than I can remember from various types of blades, certainly the number of hilts I have removed would be somewhere in the hundreds. When I am at home I use a propane torch to heat the blade, when I am in Jawa I use either a candle or a small kerosene lamp. Removal of a hilt is something that I do as a very simple and basic operation that requires no thought and no interruption to work flow.
Never, ever, have I had a hilt crack during removal because of heat expansion.

I would not recommend any inexperienced person to use a propane torch.

Jean · 27th May 2010, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

You're a braver man than I am Jean.

In respect of pesi expansion causing a crack in the hilt:-

over a + 50 year period I have removed more hilts than I can remember from various types of blades, certainly the number of hilts I have removed would be somewhere in the hundreds. When I am at home I use a propane torch to heat the blade, when I am in Jawa I use either a candle or a small kerosene lamp. Removal of a hilt is something that I do as a very simple and basic operation that requires no thought and no interruption to work flow.
Never, ever, have I had a hilt crack during removal because of heat expansion.

I would not recommend any inexperienced person to use a propane torch.

Dear Alan,
I did break one ivory hilt while trying to remove it after heating it and the sorsoran with a hair dryer set at maximum temperature (probably not hot enough) but I think that it was broken before and re-glued.
Best regards
Jean

A. G. Maisey · 27th May 2010, 11:14 AM

Jean, it might pay you to talk to a conservator, or perhaps specialist dealer in ivories about the optimum manner in which to treat and store ivory.

Additionally, you need to be aware that some woods used in Javanese keris hilts are recommended to be worn only at night and not to be exposed to sunlight.

The major problem with all heating methods other than the traditional one of direct low heat is that it is impossible to direct the heat to exactly the area required, you simply cannot control it to a sufficient degree.

By "low heat", I mean a heat which will not alter the degree of hardness in the blade. This is not particularly vital for a keris blade, but it can be an important consideration for western knives, cutlery, custom knives, and some eastern daggers.

rasdan · 27th May 2010, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

heat the whole blade into our kitchen oven adjusted on "rotating heat" to ensure uniform temperature and set at 120°C

Keris food channel.. Now i had heard everything..

16th May 2010, 09:11 AM	#3
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Not succeeded yet.. I've tried the first way (1) steamed the blade upon a pot of water (of course, it was an unused pot) for more than an hour -- hot, cold, then hot, and cold etc. Not moved at all. And (2) I took a big risk by heating the blade upon a small flame of kitchen gas -- hot, cold, and hot, cold. Not succeeded too... Very "stubborn"... (image below) Then, I let it as it is again. And thinking of trying to clean the blade without submerging the hilt, of course... Still thinking how to do it. GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

17th May 2010, 02:54 AM	#6
Moshah Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 171	Wow, very risky! I really hope you to be careful I just wonder was pak Ganja's hilt is the one called "palembang hulu burung" or was the attached pix is? What is the difference between both (except the material difference)? I can see some similar carvings pattern there, but the style is not the same... thanks in advance pals for letting me know... Attached Images

23rd May 2010, 01:59 AM	#9
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Thanks Alan, and all, The hilt is already unfixed, and I've cleaned the blade too.... GANJAWULUNG Attached Images

16th May 2010, 03:45 AM	#1
ganjawulung Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: J a k a r t a Posts: 991	Thanks Rick for the advice, I would try to be brave to unfix it... but step by step. Maybe I would try to "steam" it first, not to heat it in direct flame... @sajen, yes Detlef, it has a Palembang warangka. But still in repairement of the "gandar" side, broken a bit. Sure, later I will post the foto of it after it is ready.. Thanks, for all the advice. GANJAWULUNG

16th May 2010, 04:01 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	The heat from a candle or a small kero lamp (senthir) will definitely not hurt the blade. Yes, it will get very dirty, but the soot just washes off with turps, and you need to clean and stain the blade anyway. I would not go anywhere near it with steam, because unlike a direct heat, the steam is not controllable, and you do not want that hilt to get bathed in steam. I've removed all sorts of hilts with heat, as I describe, not just keris hilts, but pedangs, tombaks, badiks, western custom knives, old western cutlery --- all sorts of blades from all sorts of hilts with all sorts of adhesives, including modern epoxies. Because I've had so much experience I usually use a propane torch when I'm at home, but I will never recommend that to somebody new at this. A candle or a little kero lamp will do exactly the same job, its just dirtier --- which doesn't matter at all, and slower, which also doesn't matter. Afterthought:- even if you did get the blade really hot, you've got to take up to straw-blue to draw the temper from heat-treated steel, and this part of a keris blade is not heat-treated anyway, its still soft, so there's no temper to draw. Don't forget:- you're only heating the sorsoran. You just can't get it to this sort of heat with a candle. Direct heat will not hurt it.

16th May 2010, 11:16 AM	#4
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	If I owned this keris I would not be brave enough to use either of these methods, and I cannot see how sufficient heat could be applied to the blade with either method to get the tang hot enough to encourage the tang to come free. Buy a candle.

27th May 2010, 12:00 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	You're a braver man than I am Jean. In respect of pesi expansion causing a crack in the hilt:- over a + 50 year period I have removed more hilts than I can remember from various types of blades, certainly the number of hilts I have removed would be somewhere in the hundreds. When I am at home I use a propane torch to heat the blade, when I am in Jawa I use either a candle or a small kerosene lamp. Removal of a hilt is something that I do as a very simple and basic operation that requires no thought and no interruption to work flow. Never, ever, have I had a hilt crack during removal because of heat expansion. I would not recommend any inexperienced person to use a propane torch.

27th May 2010, 11:14 AM	#13
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,991	Jean, it might pay you to talk to a conservator, or perhaps specialist dealer in ivories about the optimum manner in which to treat and store ivory. Additionally, you need to be aware that some woods used in Javanese keris hilts are recommended to be worn only at night and not to be exposed to sunlight. The major problem with all heating methods other than the traditional one of direct low heat is that it is impossible to direct the heat to exactly the area required, you simply cannot control it to a sufficient degree. By "low heat", I mean a heat which will not alter the degree of hardness in the blade. This is not particularly vital for a keris blade, but it can be an important consideration for western knives, cutlery, custom knives, and some eastern daggers.