Interesting big sized javanese keris

[Sajen]

Hello Alan,

I every time have problems to differentiate between kayu Trembola and kayu Kemuning (like to see ). Would you be so kind to show two examples side by side and explain the differents? Thank you in advance.

Regards,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

I'm sorry Sajen, but I can't do this.

I have never seen any wrongkos that the people in the circles I move in identify as kemuning. Yes, kemuning is a well known wood, and I hear kemuning mentioned here continually, but I have not ever held a wrongko in my hands that anybody I know identified as kemuning.

Trembalu , on the other hand is well known, prized, and met with fairly frequently in older pieces.

The wrongko in this thread looks exactly like what we know as trembalu, but there is a range of colour in trembalu, sometimes it can be quite a bit darker and redder than this.

As we know, colour rendition in any photos can be extremely unreliable.

[Sajen]

So this wrongko is also from trembalu?

[Sajen]

I have just searched for kemuning in old threads and looked to some books and there is said that sampirs from Bugis/Sumatera/Malay keris are often made from kemunig. And I think that for example this sampir from a other thread is worked from kemuning. I show it side by side with the wrongko from #16 to show the affinity from the grain of this both.

[A. G. Maisey]

The Jawa wrongko looks like trembalu to me.

I do not know the local and correct name for the wood in the Malay wrongko.

I have seen this degree of chatoyancy in many other woods, both SE Asian woods and European woods. You can find a chatoyant grain such as we see here in any number of common cabinet timbers, walnut for instance. In SE Asian timbers I've seen similar grain in scented sandalwood.

I'm afraid that from a picture of a piece of polished wood I simply cannot tell what the wood might be most of the time. I'm just not that good.

EDIT I probably should add that kemuning is certainly known in Jawa, but we know it as material for jejeran; it is ideal for this purpose because it has a tight, close, fine grain.Its a yellowish wood and needs to be stained after it has been carved. In these wrongkos with highly chatoyant grain, I don't see anything that I would recognise as kemuning.

[Gustav]

Dear All,

that's what it looks like after some cleaning:

1) I was wrong, it is not timoho (probably kemuning but not stained?); just when I cleaned patra's, the bright parts seemed to be soft wood.

2) I am nearly sure now the "shadows" are dyed; the consistence of wood there seems to be harder, also better for carving - the details are better cut were the wood is black.

The long lines visible now on bright parts are recognizable also within the "shadow".

The wood of my wrongko IS darker and more reddish then on the two pictures; the natural color is more like in the one with keris inside (same post).

There are some wrongko examples from Hidayat's site. It seems, he calls it Kemuning when long paralel lines in the wood are visible, sometimes it seems to be the only difference.

Trembalo: http://keris.fotopic.net/p55407012.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p50102970.html , http://keris.fotopic.net/p52103495.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p61975575.html

Kemuning: http://keris.fotopic.net/p50102970.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p50299622.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p50103001.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p52104027.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p45534487.html

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by Gustav

Dear All,

that's what it looks like after some cleaning:

1) I was wrong, it is not timoho (probably kemuning but not stained?); just when I cleaned patra's, the bright parts seemed to be soft wood.

2) I am nearly sure now the "shadows" are dyed; the consistence of wood there seems to be harder, also better for carving - the details are better cut were the wood is black.

The long lines visible now on bright parts are recognizable also within the "shadow".

The wood of my wrongko IS darker and more reddish then on the two pictures; the natural color is more like in the one with keris inside (same post).

There are some wrongko examples from Hidayat's site. It seems, he calls it Kemuning when long paralel lines in the wood are visible, sometimes it seems to be the only difference.

Trembalo: http://keris.fotopic.net/p55407012.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p50102970.html , http://keris.fotopic.net/p52103495.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p61975575.html

Kemuning: http://keris.fotopic.net/p50102970.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p50299622.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p50103001.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p52104027.html, http://keris.fotopic.net/p45534487.html

Hello Gustav,

nice jejeran. I think that you want to write under 2. that you sure that the black parts are not dyed. And it will be like this since nothing is gone from the black by the cleaning.

About kemuning and trembalo: It's still a mystery for me to differ between this two woods, special after seeing the examples you have shown.

Best,

Detlef

[A. G. Maisey]

I believe the people who are taking part in this conversation are aware that I deal, ie, I buy and sell keris.

I also have very extensive experience and many contacts in the dealer network in Indonesia, that stretch back over 40 years.

Perhaps it might be as well to note that a dealer will often discover that the name of something is what a number of his buyers would like it to be.

Never forget:- the customer is always right.

And this applies doubly in Indonesia.

Many dealers, especially Indonesian dealers, are extremely knowledgeable, but that does not mean that what they tell their customers is necessarily what they themselves know, or believe, to be accurate.

In Jawa you simply do not find a lot of big kemuning trees, thus it is not regarded as a wrongko wood, but rather as a wood for jejeran. Outside Jawa in the Peninsula, and probably Kalimantan, it seems there are more big kemuning trees, so it is used for wrongkos, because sometimes you do get nginden (chatoyant) grain in kemuning.

Another quite common wood that is used in Jawa for wrongkos, and has distinct similarities to kemuning is akasia.

[Sajen]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

The Jawa wrongko looks like trembalu to me.

I do not know the local and correct name for the wood in the Malay wrongko.

I have seen this degree of chatoyancy in many other woods, both SE Asian woods and European woods. You can find a chatoyant grain such as we see here in any number of common cabinet timbers, walnut for instance. In SE Asian timbers I've seen similar grain in scented sandalwood.

I'm afraid that from a picture of a piece of polished wood I simply cannot tell what the wood might be most of the time. I'm just not that good.

EDIT I probably should add that kemuning is certainly known in Jawa, but we know it as material for jejeran; it is ideal for this purpose because it has a tight, close, fine grain.Its a yellowish wood and needs to be stained after it has been carved. In these wrongkos with highly chatoyant grain, I don't see anything that I would recognise as kemuning.

Thank you Alain for the time you spend by this. And you are right; I also know this grain from walnut, very similar. And it's maybe possible that there are different sorts of kemuning.