Help with Keris ID?

nechesh · 31st May 2005, 11:12 PM

Now that you mention it Tom, that could indeed be a leather spacer. I was unfamilar with the European tradition. Thanks for the info.

littledirtnap · 1st June 2005, 12:10 AM

I really appreciate all the input!! This helps me a great deal, as this is my first Keris, and I'd like to treat it with proper care.

The spacer is unmistakable as a small circle of leather, soaked in pitch(?).Of this I am sure. It is clearly layered from a first hand view, and has the fibrous characteristic where worn, and worn to lighter brown in small areas.

I will be leaving the hilt as is, as it is tight and I have no desire to change anything. I will, however, carefully clean it.

I am very glad that my asking here has produced this much discussion, and I'll take any and all I can get, and take all into consideration.

Thanks!!

Alam Shah · 1st June 2005, 05:33 AM

Your blade pamor pattern is beautiful. Have a look here for some ideas on how it is traditionally cleaned.

tom hyle · 1st June 2005, 10:36 AM

There are two places where you can see such leather washers on modern traditional European work. First is on fighting swords, where there is sometimes a leather or felt washer/spacer similar in size and shape to Japanese seppa between guard and blade. The other is on tanged woodworking chisels. On the swords it is usually cited as being for tight/quiet sheath-fit, though I don't know that this is its true descent; on the chisels it is held to absorb shock thru the forged bolster, padding the wood and metal from each other. A fairly integral part of this method is that the hole is longer than the tang, so all the stress goes to the end of the handle, rather than the end of the hole (there is usually a significant wedgeness to the tang, but let us leave that for now). These chisels have a square or octagonal tang otherwise rather similar to a k(e)ris tang, and a forged bolster, so this might have made sense to an European person as a way to hilt such a blade......

littledirtnap · 1st June 2005, 02:37 PM

Thank you both! I'll pick an evening soon and clean it..I think it would be pretty cool if it were hilted in Iceland

Kiai Carita · 7th June 2005, 09:41 PM

Sorry to contradict an expert but this blade is not from Jawa. It is either Bugis or Sumatran. As for the pamor, it seems to be Pedaringan Kebak (Full Airing Cupboards) which is the same as beras-wutah, kulit-semangka, only with even more 'pamor'...which in the case of Sumatra and Bugis blades, most often is pamor Luwu, from nikel-rich iron mined since old times in Luwu, Sulawesi.

Rick · 7th June 2005, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiai Carita

Sorry to contradict an expert but this blade is not from Jawa. It is either Bugis or Sumatran. As for the pamor, it seems to be Pedaringan Kebak (Full Airing Cupboards) which is the same as beras-wutah, kulit-semangka, only with even more 'pamor'...which in the case of Sumatra and Bugis blades, most often is pamor Luwu, from nikel-rich iron mined since old times in Luwu, Sulawesi.

No contradiction .

When it comes to keris we are all students .

Thanks for your input Kiai .

Alam Shah · 9th June 2005, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiai Carita

Sorry to contradict an expert but this blade is not from Jawa. It is either Bugis or Sumatran. As for the pamor, it seems to be Pedaringan Kebak (Full Airing Cupboards) which is the same as beras-wutah, kulit-semangka, only with even more 'pamor'...which in the case of Sumatra and Bugis blades, most often is pamor Luwu, from nikel-rich iron mined since old times in Luwu, Sulawesi.

Hi Kiai Carita,
No contradition here...

After gazing the blade for a long time, I don't think it's a Bugis blade. However, I do agree that it might be a Sumatran blade due to its gentle luks and the shape of sogokan depan, sogokan belakang, janur and bungkul (the centre portion of the lower half near the base of the blade). Thank you for the update, Kiai.

Nechesh, I'm no expert either..

.

1st June 2005, 05:33 AM	#3
Alam Shah Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,248	Your blade pamor pattern is beautiful. Have a look here for some ideas on how it is traditionally cleaned. Last edited by Alam Shah; 1st June 2005 at 05:46 AM.

31st May 2005, 11:12 PM	#1
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Now that you mention it Tom, that could indeed be a leather spacer. I was unfamilar with the European tradition. Thanks for the info.

1st June 2005, 12:10 AM	#2
littledirtnap Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 10	I really appreciate all the input!! This helps me a great deal, as this is my first Keris, and I'd like to treat it with proper care. The spacer is unmistakable as a small circle of leather, soaked in pitch(?).Of this I am sure. It is clearly layered from a first hand view, and has the fibrous characteristic where worn, and worn to lighter brown in small areas. I will be leaving the hilt as is, as it is tight and I have no desire to change anything. I will, however, carefully clean it. I am very glad that my asking here has produced this much discussion, and I'll take any and all I can get, and take all into consideration. Thanks!!

1st June 2005, 10:36 AM	#4
tom hyle Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Houston, TX, USA Posts: 1,254	There are two places where you can see such leather washers on modern traditional European work. First is on fighting swords, where there is sometimes a leather or felt washer/spacer similar in size and shape to Japanese seppa between guard and blade. The other is on tanged woodworking chisels. On the swords it is usually cited as being for tight/quiet sheath-fit, though I don't know that this is its true descent; on the chisels it is held to absorb shock thru the forged bolster, padding the wood and metal from each other. A fairly integral part of this method is that the hole is longer than the tang, so all the stress goes to the end of the handle, rather than the end of the hole (there is usually a significant wedgeness to the tang, but let us leave that for now). These chisels have a square or octagonal tang otherwise rather similar to a k(e)ris tang, and a forged bolster, so this might have made sense to an European person as a way to hilt such a blade......

1st June 2005, 02:37 PM	#5
littledirtnap Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 10	Thank you both! I'll pick an evening soon and clean it..I think it would be pretty cool if it were hilted in Iceland

7th June 2005, 09:41 PM	#6
Kiai Carita Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 91	Sorry to contradict an expert but this blade is not from Jawa. It is either Bugis or Sumatran. As for the pamor, it seems to be Pedaringan Kebak (Full Airing Cupboards) which is the same as beras-wutah, kulit-semangka, only with even more 'pamor'...which in the case of Sumatra and Bugis blades, most often is pamor Luwu, from nikel-rich iron mined since old times in Luwu, Sulawesi.