Alex Coppel Solingen Sabre

[Atlantia]

Just done a deal for this.
Anyone clue me in with some background on these please?
The blade is in lovely condition, the scabbard is blued, with some surface rust, the hilt is completely covered in surface light rust, but should clean up very well.
Marked 96, and 02. I would assume from the condition thats 1896 and 1902.... but isn't it the 1796 prussian/Brit pattern?
I've been up since dawn and can't wrap my head around it. Come on guys, help a brother out!

[Ian Knight]

It's not a British P1796 light cavalry sword.
I don't know a lot about German swords but I would say that your sword is a c1900 Prussian Artilleryman's sword.

Ian

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

It's not a British P1796 light cavalry sword.
I don't know a lot about German swords but I would say that your sword is a c1900 Prussian Artilleryman's sword.

Ian

Hi Ian,

The Prussian pattern was essentially a copy of the Brit I believe. I know its not the Brit, but its rather close isn't it?
I'm quite pleased! Been a long time since I've treated myself to a sword, and a very long time since I've bought/owned a military Sabre.
Sooo, that bodes the question how blooming long did this pattern stay in service? Could is be a 1796 pattern, 1902 issue?
That would be bizzare!

Thanks for helping mate.
Gene

[Ian Knight]

Hello Gene,
You are very welcome.
The Prussian Model 1811 'Blucher' sabre was very similar to a British P1796 light cavalry sabre. The obvious differences are that the Prussian M1811 has a knucklebow/crossguard of heavier contruction and the scabbard has a more pronounced shoe/drag than the P1796.
The basic design of the M1811 with its stirrup shaped knucklebow was used for many years by Germany right up to WW2.
The British P1796 was, on the other hand, superceded by the P1821 light cavalry sabre.
I have attached a photo of one of my British P1796 sabres for a comparison with your very nice Prussian Artilleryman's sword.
The other two photos are of a Prussian M1811 note the hilt and scabbard drag.
Ian

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Hello Gene,
You are very welcome.
The Prussian Model 1811 'Blucher' sabre was very similar to a British P1796 light cavalry sabre. The obvious differences are that the Prussian M1811 has a knucklebow/crossguard of heavier contruction and the scabbard has a more pronounced shoe/drag than the P1796.
The basic design of the M1811 with its stirrup shaped knucklebow was used for many years by Germany right up to WW2.
The British P1796 was, on the other hand, superceded by the P1821 light cavalry sabre.
I have attached a photo of one of my British P1796 sabres for a comparison with your very nice Prussian Artilleryman's sword.
Ian

Hi Ian,
Do they mark like we do? As in year of pattern and issue?
Here are some more pics, now I'm a bit more awake, lol

[Atlantia]

Thanks for the pics, mine's definately a slimmer type isn't it?

[Ian Knight]

Hello Gene,
Your sword is marked with a Crown above the letter 'W' for Wilhelm II.

Britain did have very similar markings for their arms which started, I believe, in 1870. Further changes were made to the way Britain's arms were marked in 1881 and then again in 1912.
Ian

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Hello Gene,
Your sword is marked with a Crown above the letter 'W' for Wilhelm II.

Britain did have very similar markings for their arms which started, I believe, in 1870. Further changes were made to the way Britain's arms were marked in 1881 and then again in 1912.
Ian

Ah, Kaiser Bill!
So are the '96' and '02' dates?

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Thanks for the pics, mine's definately a slimmer type isn't it?

Gene,
The blade on your sabre has a spear point. P1796 & M1811 blades had hatchet pointed blades in the main.
The blade on one of my P1796 sabres is 4cm wide at its widest (10cm from the point) and 85cm long.
A P1796 blade is a vicious looking thing and caused horrific injuries.
Ian

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Ah, Kaiser Bill!
So are the '96' and '02' dates?

Indeed they are.

Ian

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Gene,
The blade on your sabre has a spear point. P1796 & M1811 blades had hatchet pointed blades in the main.
The blade on one of my P1796 sabres is 4cm wide at its widest (10cm from the point) and 85cm long.
A P1796 blade is a vicious looking thing and caused horrific injuries.
Ian

Mine is not sharpened, nor has it ever been. It's just a stabber!
Blade 66cm across the curve, 3cm wide. Weight in scabbard 1900g - 4 1/4 lb.

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Indeed they are.

Ian

So issued in 1902? Wonder what were the Prussian military (So imperial Germany?) up to in 1902?

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

So issued in 1902? Wonder what were the Prussian military (So imperial Germany?) up to in 1902?

Armies still have to be equipped even in peacetime.
Ian

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Armies still have to be equipped even in peacetime.
Ian

Hardly peacetime! We're forgetting the Venezuela Crisis of 1902!

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hardly peacetime! We're forgetting the Venezuela Crisis of 1902!

Outside of my zone of interest (and knowledge) I'm afraid.
Ian

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Outside of my zone of interest (and knowledge) I'm afraid.
Ian

LOL, I'd never even heard of it until I googled German army 1902!


Thanks for all your help mate.
Gene

[Ian Knight]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

LOL, I'd never even heard of it until I googled German army 1902!


Thanks for all your help mate.
Gene

Nice.
You are welcome Gene.

Ian

[Atlantia]

Just found a couple of this actual model being discussed in archives:
ARTILLERY SWORD

[Atlantia]

Hi all,
The sword has now been cleaned up and is looking a lot happier for it.
Here are the stamped markings on it.


And finally this weird little (makers?) stamp on the bottom of the knuckle bow.

[sabertasche]

Hi all, I thought I add my thoughts on this sword and its markings. From the books I have on Imperial German swords it appears that this is a "Dove Head" "Combat" Artillery Sabre.

This was generic pattern of sword issued to many German formations in WW1 and used into the Weimar period (pre-WW2) as well. The markings on the blade indicate Imperial German proofs for the sword pattern 1896 and the date of issue 1902. The Crown L would indicate proofed and accepted for the Bavarian Army.

In Jeff Noll's book, "The Imperial German Regimental Marking" he states "there are three types or styles of numbers or numerals found with Regimental markings. They are large numbers (approx. 3 mm high), small numbers (approx. 2 mm high), and Roman numerals. The large numbers generally identify the organization (regiments) and units (companies). The small numbers identify particular Waffe or weapon. However, some Regimental markings have all the same height numbers." With regards to Gene's sword, with just a "5", this would be the 5th Battery, Uhlan Regiment or 5th ???? in the Weimar era Reichwehere.

The mark which points to post-WW1 usage is the mark on the underside of the guard. This is called a Waffenampt and it's typical of Weimar/3rd Reich weapons. This would indicate that the sword was accepted into the post-WW1 German army. During this time the regimental markings were greatly simplified as the Weimar period Reichweher became the 3rd Reich Wehermact.

The sword was worn on the right side of the horse saddle, attached to a leather holster or frog. A different more ornate sword, possibly of private purchase would have been worn for foot patrol or parade.

There are many books on German swords and I have only a few in my library. I've looked at the following to prepare this post.

Regards,

Greg

Swords of Germany, 1900/1945, John R. Angolia (1988),R.James Bender Publishing. ISBN No. 0-912138-40-8

Collecting the Edged Weapons of Imperial Germany Volume 1, Ltc.(RET.) Thomas M Johnson, Thomas T. Wittmann (1988), Johnson Reference Books, ISBN No. 0-9600906-0-6

The Bayonet, a history of knife and sword bayonets 1850-1970, Anthony Carter, John Walker, (1974), Charles Scribner and Sons, New York,
ISBN0-684-13931-8

The Imperial German Regimental Marking. Jeff Noll (1988), privately published by Jeff Noll, Ventura CA.

[Ian Knight]

Hello Gene,
You've made a great job of restoring your sword. What method did you use?
Ian

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by sabertasche

Hi all, I thought I add my thoughts on this sword and its markings. From the books I have on Imperial German swords it appears that this is a "Dove Head" "Combat" Artillery Sabre.

This was generic pattern of sword issued to many German formations in WW1 and used into the Weimar period (pre-WW2) as well. The markings on the blade indicate Imperial German proofs for the sword pattern 1896 and the date of issue 1902. The Crown L would indicate proofed and accepted for the Bavarian Army.

In Jeff Noll's book, "The Imperial German Regimental Marking" he states "there are three types or styles of numbers or numerals found with Regimental markings. They are large numbers (approx. 3 mm high), small numbers (approx. 2 mm high), and Roman numerals. The large numbers generally identify the organization (regiments) and units (companies). The small numbers identify particular Waffe or weapon. However, some Regimental markings have all the same height numbers." With regards to Gene's sword, with just a "5", this would be the 5th Battery, Uhlan Regiment or 5th ???? in the Weimar era Reichwehere.

The mark which points to post-WW1 usage is the mark on the underside of the guard. This is called a Waffenampt and it's typical of Weimar/3rd Reich weapons. This would indicate that the sword was accepted into the post-WW1 German army. During this time the regimental markings were greatly simplified as the Weimar period Reichweher became the 3rd Reich Wehermact.

The sword was worn on the right side of the horse saddle, attached to a leather holster or frog. A different more ornate sword, possibly of private purchase would have been worn for foot patrol or parade.

There are many books on German swords and I have only a few in my library. I've looked at the following to prepare this post.

Regards,

Greg

Swords of Germany, 1900/1945, John R. Angolia (1988),R.James Bender Publishing. ISBN No. 0-912138-40-8

Collecting the Edged Weapons of Imperial Germany Volume 1, Ltc.(RET.) Thomas M Johnson, Thomas T. Wittmann (1988), Johnson Reference Books, ISBN No. 0-9600906-0-6

The Bayonet, a history of knife and sword bayonets 1850-1970, Anthony Carter, John Walker, (1974), Charles Scribner and Sons, New York,
ISBN0-684-13931-8

The Imperial German Regimental Marking. Jeff Noll (1988), privately published by Jeff Noll, Ventura CA.

Hi Greg,

Firstly let me thank you for your great detective work on my humble sabre.
To be honest I wasn't expecting much from a single letter, so this is quite a bonus
So this was a sword of the Bavarian army (within the Imperial German)?
Would that make it a little more unusual?
The crowned L, is on its won and the marking above the '02' (the 'L' part looks like like another figure is right next to it amost like 'Lf')
So it was issued in 1902 to the Bavarian army?
Would that account for the very limited regimental marking, as the Bavarian army was relatively small?
The '5.' on my sword is a approx 3mm high.
Thats very interesting that the little 'eagle' marking is a post WW1 stamp!

Thanks for all your help.
Great work
Gene

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by Ian Knight

Hello Gene,
You've made a great job of restoring your sword. What method did you use?
Ian

Hi Ian,

Well, I went by your 1796 for inspiration.
I know from the pictures it looks a little like I've really harshly repolished it, but I actually havent.
The hilt really only had a fairly even coating of surface rust, with sporadic light pitting. I didn't want to eat the rust out of the pits, but I did want to remove the surface rust.
My tool of choice here is that really-really fine silicon carbide 'wet and dry' sandpaper that you use inbetween coats of automotive paint.
I know that different companies seem to have different grades, but basically 1500 should do the job.
Its just about enought to remove the rust while basically just buffing the steel underneath. I use it wet, and the same technique took the bulk of the rust off of the scabbard while leaving the 'blueing' mostly intact (that was a very careful job).
With the bare steel on the hilt, I did give it a little polish with autosol afterwards. I'd sometimes dull it back with a wipe over with something vaguely corrosive, but I will let this dull back on its own (a few months of handling will do that).
With the scabbard, I'll just rub it over with WD40 on a cloth until it all blends in now.

[Atlantia]

[celtan]

Was this also known as the model 1852?

[sabertasche]

Hi Celtan, the 1852 pattern had a basket guard. Like the British forces, the Germans did a reorganization of their military just prior to the end of the century. From an edged weapon standpoint, they simplified the patterns to broadly similar designs with just hilt decoration and regimental distinctions indicating which regiment and state the sword belonged to.

Gene's sword is a generic pattern battle sword that would have been used by all German States. 1852 pattern battle swords were recycled to Landweher (reserve) forces by the turn of the century. Many of the '52 pattern swords could be privately upgraded to have engraved blades, often with gilted or blued panels or damascus blades. The same is true for the M89 patterns as well although M89 swords with damascus blades are fairly rare. The M52, M89 and Gene's sword were meant for the ORs and NCOs while the Officers wore private purchase more ornate swords. These swords had important rank connotations as did the sword knots attached to them. Although they became almost jewelry for many NCOs and Officers, the private purchase swords could be bought with combat in mind. These types would have heavier blades.

I'm rambling now so I'll just end with the comment that German swords are a fairly complex field of collecting. There are lots of swords to buy and atleast with Imperial sword fairly inexpensive. 3rd Reich stuff is a whole different kettle of fish and I never have collected there.

Greg

[Atlantia]

Originally Posted by sabertasche

Hi Celtan, the 1852 pattern had a basket guard. Like the British forces, the Germans did a reorganization of their military just prior to the end of the century. From an edged weapon standpoint, they simplified the patterns to broadly similar designs with just hilt decoration and regimental distinctions indicating which regiment and state the sword belonged to.

Gene's sword is a generic pattern battle sword that would have been used by all German States. 1852 pattern battle swords were recycled to Landweher (reserve) forces by the turn of the century. Many of the '52 pattern swords could be privately upgraded to have engraved blades, often with gilted or blued panels or damascus blades. The same is true for the M89 patterns as well although M89 swords with damascus blades are fairly rare. The M52, M89 and Gene's sword were meant for the ORs and NCOs while the Officers wore private purchase more ornate swords. These swords had important rank connotations as did the sword knots attached to them. Although they became almost jewelry for many NCOs and Officers, the private purchase swords could be bought with combat in mind. These types would have heavier blades.

I'm rambling now so I'll just end with the comment that German swords are a fairly complex field of collecting. There are lots of swords to buy and atleast with Imperial sword fairly inexpensive. 3rd Reich stuff is a whole different kettle of fish and I never have collected there.

Greg

Hi Greg,
Speaking of my sword
Did you have any thoughts o my last few questions a few posts up?
Thanks
Gene

[celtan]

Danke, kamerad.

: )

Originally Posted by sabertasche

Hi Celtan, the 1852 pattern had a basket guard. Like the British forces, the Germans did a reorganization of their military just prior to the end of the century. From an edged weapon standpoint, they simplified the patterns to broadly similar designs with just hilt decoration and regimental distinctions indicating which regiment and state the sword belonged to.

Gene's sword is a generic pattern battle sword that would have been used by all German States. 1852 pattern battle swords were recycled to Landweher (reserve) forces by the turn of the century. Many of the '52 pattern swords could be privately upgraded to have engraved blades, often with gilted or blued panels or damascus blades. The same is true for the M89 patterns as well although M89 swords with damascus blades are fairly rare. The M52, M89 and Gene's sword were meant for the ORs and NCOs while the Officers wore private purchase more ornate swords. These swords had important rank connotations as did the sword knots attached to them. Although they became almost jewelry for many NCOs and Officers, the private purchase swords could be bought with combat in mind. These types would have heavier blades.

I'm rambling now so I'll just end with the comment that German swords are a fairly complex field of collecting. There are lots of swords to buy and atleast with Imperial sword fairly inexpensive. 3rd Reich stuff is a whole different kettle of fish and I never have collected there.

Greg