Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[David]

Here is just one thread which showcases these large punals:
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...ighlight=punal
The word is Spanish. The etymology is not really important in this case, though i am so glad to hear that you know it.

[baganing_balyan]

I am not into bragging about my background. I challenge you to find a maranao and find out the truth yourself.

now tell me what is punal or punyal. Have you measured that guy's sword using his fist? is that a knife to you? How many fists can you make along the knife?
You can use fist because he was holding his sword. four or five fists? is that the length of punal? punal means knife. It's not a name of a blade.

[baganing_balyan]

at least you know punal is spanish. why would an anti-christian, anti-spanish muslims use punal as a tradtional name for a blade. that alone would give you a hint.

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

at least you know punal is spanish. why would an anti-christian, anti-spanish muslims use punal as a tradtional name for a blade. that alone would give you a hint.

Ok I have been trying to follow this. But I have to ask. Don't both Moro and Christians in the Philippines both have spanish and portuguese words in their vocabulary ? I admit my experience is limited.

[baganing_balyan]

by the way, since you are into my credibility. I got in this forum because your use of "ethnographic weapons" intrigued me.

do you know what ethnographic means?

do you know that you can conduct an ethnographic research in Brooklyn, Georgia, or Paris?

ethnographic does not mean traditional. If you don't like my presence here because I am into sharing what i know to change false conventions, then you can ban me.

Again, I challenge you to even email that person in yellow muslim attire in his blog and ask if what he had on his waist was a knife.

[David]

Please Baganing, i know what a punal is and i know that they are meant to be knife length. Truly antique punals will undoubtable always be a knife length. In the 20th century however, punals got larger and larger, mostly for tourist consumption. The punals in the photo you linked to are all modern pieces. These types are also shown in the link i just posted. I really don't need to find a Maranao to confirm this for me.
All true kris and keris have an asymmetric blade, with a section at the base known as the gangya (the spelling i usually see applied to Moro Kris) or gonjo (Indonesian). It is clear from the sheath style in the picture you linked to that these blades do not have this asymmetrical feature. Therefore they are not kris, but instead long punals or gugongs if you prefer,
No, you are not bragging about your background. In fact, i know very little about it and have no reason to take your word on anything based on what i know about you.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

Ok I have been trying to follow this. But I have to ask. Don't both Moro and Christians in the Philippines both have spanish and portuguese words in their vocabulary ? I admit my experience is limited.

punal from punyal entered the maranao lexicon through chavacano (filipinized spanish) in zamboanga. it is a word for a knife not a maranao traditional name for a blade. Tagalogs use punyal too to mean a knife not as a name for a specific knife.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

Please Baganing, i know what a punal is and i know that they are meant to be knife length. Truly antique punals will undoubtable always be a knife length. In the 20th century however, punals got larger and larger, mostly for tourist consumption. The punals in the photo you linked to are all modern pieces. These types are also shown in the link i just posted. I really don't need to find a Maranao to confirm this for me.
All true kris and keris have an asymmetric blade, with a section at the base known as the gangya (the spelling i usually see applied to Moro Kris) or gonjo (Indonesian). It is clear from the sheath style in the picture you linked to that these blades do not have this asymmetrical feature. Therefore they are not kris, but instead long punals or gugongs if you prefer,
No, you are not bragging about your background. In fact, i know very little about it and have no reason to take your word on anything based on what i know about you.

punal or punyal is a word for a knife period. if it's not a knife-length, they have a word for it. calling a sword a knife is just illogical. Maranaos are not that dumb. They are good in language and literature, and yes in logic too.

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

punal from punyal entered the maranao lexicon through chavacano (filipinized spanish) in zamboanga. it is a word for a knife not a maranao traditional name for a blade. Tagalogs use punyal too to mean a knife not as a name for a specific knife.

I know what punal/puyal means. I said my experience was limited but I am a student of Pananandata. The blade, sheath and handle form in every book I have seen ( From Stone to Cato) for Punal matches what David says. That is not to say there may not be other names for it in other dialects. I have stuggled with that on Aceh weapons, with all the ethnic groups lliving there the same weapon may be called a dozen different things depending on who you ask. Its the same weapon. I have seen a balisong the length of my arm. While not a traditional balisong it was still one.

And as I said above I have been led to believe that even "anti-christian, anti-spanish muslims" have both spanish and portuguese words they commonly use.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

punal or punyal is a word for a knife period. if it's not a knife-length, they have a word for it. calling a sword a knife is just illogical. Maranaos are not that dumb. They are good in language and literature, and yes in logic too.

Please do not turn this into a racial argument because i will not stand for that. No one here has made any comment disparaging any part of Moro culture. If you do not want to call these longer knives/short swords punal, that is fine with me. Pick your name. As i stated, some call them gugongs. What they are truly not, however, are kris, which i will once more, for the truly dense among us, repeat, must have an asymmetrical blade and some sort of gonjo (separate or intrinsic) to qualify. If you do not know what a kris is, please don't bother me with you questions about what a punal is.

[baganing_balyan]

can someone tell me if this guy is holding a knife? his kris proves that not all krises in mindanao are the same. I have even seen a kris that has no snaky blade, and the handle is tube-like without design and the katik is not elaborate.

[RhysMichael]

Perhaps as with the large balisong( that was made for a window display) the larger punal developed more as a display piece than a use piece. Even if that is not the case I have also seen "Bowie Knives" nearly that large. So again what is one mans big knife may be anothers short sword.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

ethnographic does not mean traditional. If you don't like my presence here because I am into sharing what i know to change false conventions, then you can ban me.

I know what ethnographic means my dear, believe me.
I know that you have been banned from quite a few other forums in your day, but having alternative ideas isn't part of our criteria for doing so. I am actually quite enjoying your presence here. That doesn't mean i have to agree with you. In the end your credibity will be established or not. Guess which i'm betting on.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

can someone tell me if this guy is holding a knife? his kris proves that not all krises in mindanao are the same. I have even seen a kris that has no snaky blade, and the handle is tube-like without design and the katik is not elaborate.

No need to link to the same site again. We can all see what the guy in yellow is holding. A serpentine blade is not a requirement for a kris BTW. No one is saying that. Though i would be willing to bet that the blade in that guy's sheath is in fact wavy. But let me say this again...and please, let it sink in. If it doesn't have an asymmetrical blade with a gonjo feature (separate or otherwise), it...is NOT...a kris. Clearly the width of the sheath on the blades you link to do NOT provide enough space for this feature. Therefore, these are NOT kris. What about this don't you understand?

[RhysMichael]

An example of a large confederate D guard "bowie knife" as an example of what I was speaking of. Big knife or small sword all depends on who you ask.

[baganing_balyan]

here's another example why not all krises are the same.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

here's another example why not all krises are the same.

Sorry, no gonjo, no asymmetric blade...that is not a kris in my book. What's more, it has a punal style guard on it. Now it is possible that that blade was cut down from what was once a kris, but i would not consider it a kris in it's present form.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, our friend Ms Baganing is clearly a knowledgeable and educated person.

I personally honour and respect her deep knowledge--- I'm not quite sure exactly what that knowledge encompasses, but it is obvious that it is deep knowledge, for she apparently intends to publish a book in order to lay this knowledge before us. Note:- that will be a book, not a paper, nor an article, nor an essay, but a book.

I have followed this discussion from its commencement.

It began with some sort of confused ideas concerning the keris in general, the keris form found in the Philippines, then Maranao, Turkey, and a few other things, it wandered off into the realm of myth, it has now moved into the meanings of words.

I urge you to respect Ms Barganing and her precious knowledge.

When my children were growing up I praised them lavishly for even their smallest accomplishments. I now praise my grandchildren for their extreme skill in cutting out pictures and pasting those pictures onto pieces of paper, in the correct order.

My grand daughter--- coming up to 4 years of age--- has recently acquired the deep knowledge of exactly the right time to pick a flower. This is indeed deep and valuable knowledge for a three year old.

But my grand daughter is not yet ready to be taught differential calculus, or for that matter, even her twelve times table.

Ms Baganing also has her knowledge.

Let us respect that knowledge. She will add to it in time, and when she has reached the stage when she is ready to add to her knowledge from the reservoir of knowledge that is available to her from some of our members here, I'm sure that she will avail herself of that knowledge if she needs to.

At the moment it is obvious that Ms Baganing is not quite ready to accept the knowledge that is in possession of some people here.

Do not try to force her to accept that which she is not yet ready to accept. Children learn best when encouraged, not forced.

Ms Baganing please accept my sincere compliments upon the results of your research. I urge you to continue this research, and I await with eagerness the publishing of your book.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

Sorry, no gonjo, no asymmetric blade...that is not a kris in my book. What's more, it has a punal style guard on it. Now it is possible that that blade was cut down from what was once a kris, but i would not consider it a kris in it's present form.

hahahahahaha. that's not a kris? find a yakan or a samal, he will open your eyes.

that's the reason why i took anthropology-- foreigners come to my country and use their preconception to validate our culture. Even tagalogs and visayans are guilty of that.

well, that's a mindanaoan kris, and that's according to people who use it. theya re the ones who should define their culture not the researchers.

[A. G. Maisey]

Time alters perspective.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, our friend Ms Baganing is clearly a knowledgeable and educated person.

I personally honour and respect her deep knowledge--- I'm not quite sure exactly what that knowledge encompasses, but it is obvious that it is deep knowledge, for she apparently intends to publish a book in order to lay this knowledge before us. Note:- that will be a book, not a paper, nor an article, nor an essay, but a book.

I have followed this discussion from its commencement.

It began with some sort of confused ideas concerning the keris in general, the keris form found in the Philippines, then Maranao, Turkey, and a few other things, it wandered off into the realm of myth, it has now moved into the meanings of words.

I urge you to respect Ms Barganing and her precious knowledge.

When my children were growing up I praised them lavishly for even their smallest accomplishments. I now praise my grandchildren for their extreme skill in cutting out pictures and pasting those pictures onto pieces of paper, in the correct order.

My grand daughter--- coming up to 4 years of age--- has recently acquired the deep knowledge of exactly the right time to pick a flower. This is indeed deep and valuable knowledge for a three year old.

But my grand daughter is not yet ready to be taught differential calculus, or for that matter, even her twelve times table.

Ms Baganing also has her knowledge.

Let us respect that knowledge. She will add to it in time, and when she has reached the stage when she is ready to add to her knowledge from the reservoir of knowledge that is available to her from some of our members here, I'm sure that she will avail herself of that knowledge if she needs to.

At the moment it is obvious that Ms Baganing is not quite ready to accept the knowledge that is in possession of some people here.

Do not try to force her to accept that which she is not yet ready to accept. Children learn best when encouraged, not forced.

Ms Baganing please accept my sincere compliments upon the results of your research. I urge you to continue this research, and I await with eagerness the publishing of your book.

that's very patronizing. I did my research in the first place because too many misconceptions and misinterpretations about our culture.

That's why I want to involve science in my research so nobody can accuse me of making up stuff. you cannot make up genealogy and genetics.

There are just too many stuff to change. I hope i can do that in my lifetime. I am not saying that I haven't learned from you. I even said that mine is just a seminal idea that will hopefully interest serious researchers to look into.

I keep on hearing the word "moro" attached to mindanaoan weapons. I think that's the reason why people thinks all moros or groups of muslims have the same weapons with the same looks, function, and length.

that's not the case.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

David, our friend Ms Baganing is clearly a knowledgeable and educated person.

I personally honour and respect her deep knowledge--- I'm not quite sure exactly what that knowledge encompasses, but it is obvious that it is deep knowledge, for she apparently intends to publish a book in order to lay this knowledge before us. Note:- that will be a book, not a paper, nor an article, nor an essay, but a book.

I have followed this discussion from its commencement.

It began with some sort of confused ideas concerning the keris in general, the keris form found in the Philippines, then Maranao, Turkey, and a few other things, it wandered off into the realm of myth, it has now moved into the meanings of words.

I urge you to respect Ms Barganing and her precious knowledge.

When my children were growing up I praised them lavishly for even their smallest accomplishments. I now praise my grandchildren for their extreme skill in cutting out pictures and pasting those pictures onto pieces of paper, in the correct order.

My grand daughter--- coming up to 4 years of age--- has recently acquired the deep knowledge of exactly the right time to pick a flower. This is indeed deep and valuable knowledge for a three year old.

But my grand daughter is not yet ready to be taught differential calculus, or for that matter, even her twelve times table.

Ms Baganing also has her knowledge.

Let us respect that knowledge. She will add to it in time, and when she has reached the stage when she is ready to add to her knowledge from the reservoir of knowledge that is available to her from some of our members here, I'm sure that she will avail herself of that knowledge if she needs to.

At the moment it is obvious that Ms Baganing is not quite ready to accept the knowledge that is in possession of some people here.

Do not try to force her to accept that which she is not yet ready to accept. Children learn best when encouraged, not forced.

Ms Baganing please accept my sincere compliments upon the results of your research. I urge you to continue this research, and I await with eagerness the publishing of your book.

True enough Alan, true enough.
It does seem, however, that since Ms. Baganing is not willing to accept the combined knowledge of this forum, and since most of us here are having some problem with her theories and ideas, that perhaps she is wasting her great wealth of knowledge on us, the unwashed and uneducated collectors, and perhaps she might do better to move on to some other more academic forum where her ideas will be better received. In the meantime, i also eagerly await the publishing of her book. I am sure it will be the talk of the community once it is finally published.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I keep on hearing the word "moro" attached to mindanaoan weapons. I think that's the reason why people thinks all moros or groups of muslims have the same weapons with the same looks, function, and length.
that's not the case.

Just one more question. Have you taken the time yet to use the search function on this site for words like "Kris", "Moro", "Mindanao", "Punal", "Kalis", "Sundang", etc, etc, etc to find out what this group of people might collectively think about these subjects or are you justr running on you preconceived ideas of what people in general think based on your esxperience in martial arts and other forums and life in general?
You really have no idea what we think, do you?

[baganing_balyan]

the problem with kris researchers is that they don't conduct ethnography.

Some of them even think moro is a single group of people. I am not even sure if they have a 19th century map of moro province. That's important so they would know moros have no homogenous culture, social development, resources, language, etc. Geography dictates culture.

I don't intend to preach in front of a choir. I don't even intend of preachign at all. I am into sharing ideas-- theoretical or not-- so those who cling to conventions will have a moment to rethink. Rethinking is a good thing. If one or two do that hear, then my effort is not in vain, and I would not be alone.

I just can't shut up and accept that there is a sundang sword or itak sword or daga knife in the philippines. I cannot also play ignorant by not saying what i wanna say-- as long as i have bases, i am fine.

Others claim they are experts of sulu weapons, yet they don't even know where the name sulu comes from and the geography of the place. To study weapons or etnoarcheology, such facts are important to trace the sources and resources important in reconstructing the origins of artifacts.

[A. G. Maisey]

David, at various times during our lives we possess certainty at varying levels.For example, I was certain about much more at the age of 25 than I was at 35 or 45 or 55. Now I am in my late sixties I find that I know much, much less about many things than I knew with certainty at 25.

But the peculiar thing is this:- other people, mostly people who are prepared to pay me for my opinion, seem to think that the value of my opinion has increased as time as has passed, and are prepared to pay accordingly.

Who am I to argue?

I am certain that as with many things, the marketplace will determine the value of all our knowledge.

[baganing_balyan]

David, the fact that you just dismissed that mindanaoan kris, which is typical among samal and yakan muslims tells me a lot about your thought process and misconceptions. You can stick to them, but in a sound cultural study, it's the people you studied should define their culture. they are the ones who know what are krises and what are not. Well, krises are their cultural artifacts.

If you dismissed that kris out of insufficient knowledge, that's not wrong at all, but if you did it because you really believed you were right, then I cannot accept that. As a mindanaoan, it is my duty to straighten out misconceptions and misinterpretations about my culture.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I just can't shut up and accept that there is a sundang sword or itak sword or daga knife in the philippines. I cannot also play ignorant by not saying what i wanna say-- as long as i have bases, i am fine.

Others claim they are experts of sulu weapons, yet they don't even know where the name sulu comes from and the geography of the place. To study weapons or etnoarcheology, such facts are important to trace the sources and resources important in reconstructing the origins of artifacts.

What forum are we discussing here? Not a single person here has made these claims or comments. You brought this up all by yourself.
Also no one here has made any claims to being an "expert" either, though you seem to have accuse me of it more than once. I certainly am no expert. Neither are you. We are all students here, you included.
I also seriously doubt that there is a single person here who does not full understand that the study of ethnographic weapons fully requires an immersing into the culture of origin of said weapon.
Don't want to preach to the choir? Then don't. Take a breath and a little bit of time to understand the community that you are presenting your views and ideas to and stop pre-judging us and assuming what it is that we do or do not know. Have you followed up on any of the places of research i and others have recommended to you (forum search engine,website links, books)? Or do you wish to continue based on your own preconceived ideas?

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

David, the fact that you just dismissed that mindanaoan kris, which is typical among samal and yakan muslims tells me a lot about your thought process and misconceptions. You can stick to them, but in a sound cultural study, it's the people you studied should define their culture. they are the ones who know what are krises and what are not. Well, krises are their cultural artifacts.

If you dismissed that kris out of insufficient knowledge, that's not wrong at all, but if you did it because you really believed you were right, then I cannot accept that. As a mindanaoan, it is my duty to straighten out misconceptions and misinterpretations about my culture.

I am not dismissing the weapon you have most recently posted. It is, infact, from what i can see of it, a very nice blade. It just isn't a kris. If you wish to call it a kris that is your perogative. It does not have all the features that define a kris. If you think you are going to "straighten me out", i've got news for you..

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

I am not dismissing the weapon you have most recently posted. It is, infact, from what i can see of it, a very nice blade. It just isn't a kris. If you wish to call it a kris that is your perogative. It does not have all the features that define a kris. If you think you are going to "straighten me out", i've got news for you..

I have a news for you too. I don't intend to straighten out people. I am more interested of letting my alternative ideas out so people have the chance to rethink and choose what to believe. if theya re openminded, they might straighten out themselves and respect other people's culture.

since you are an expert, what is kris to you? Do you know that the definition of kris goes beyond its looks, length, and material? Now tell me what makes a kris a kris?

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

What forum are we discussing here? Not a single person here has made these claims or comments. You brought this up all by yourself.
Also no one here has made any claims to being an "expert" either, though you seem to have accuse me of it more than once. I certainly am no expert. Neither are you. We are all students here, you included.
I also seriously doubt that there is a single person here who does not full understand that the study of ethnographic weapons fully requires an immersing into the culture of origin of said weapon.
Don't want to preach to the choir? Then don't. Take a breath and a little bit of time to understand the community that you are presenting your views and ideas to and stop pre-judging us and assuming what it is that we do or do not know. Have you followed up on any of the places of research i and others have recommended to you (forum search engine,website links, books)? Or do you wish to continue based on your own preconceived ideas?

all the links you posted have problematic historiography. you call your weapons ethnographic yet i read no ethnography. i wish i could tell you guys not to use problematic sources. If you want to know the real thing, conduct a fieldwork or use someone's work that is a result of a sound fieldwork. images on e-bay is not really a good place to start.