![]() |
![]() |
#61 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 89
|
![]() Quote:
Kris luma? Do you know what luma means? kris espada? Is that traditionally mindanaoan? Kris tulid? is it tul-id? mmmmmmmm can you check if those names of kalises and krises again existed or still exist in mindanao? They sound recent concoction to me. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#62 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,082
|
![]()
I'm not sure if it matters to you, but Spunjer is, like yourself, also a Filipino living in the USA.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#63 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 89
|
![]() Quote:
regarding the dating of kalises: I am interested to make a survey of weaponry from written and oral sources taking into account the community that made and used them. I am interested to study the krises of tausugs separate from the maguindanaoans, maranaos, and samals. If we study them like that, we can truly find out how the krises developed, differed, and looked among the muslim communities in Mindanao. mixing all krises to make a one linear comparison does not make sense. In studying and dating krises, we have to consider the artistry of maranaos, the metal works of the maguindanaos, the pearl and ornaments of samals, and the turkish influences among the tausugs. Can you tell me if Cato did that? Did he present an ethnography of each muslim group so he can understand for instance the resources available in each community, the geography, the kind of art the people do, and the symbolisms they use. in dance for instance, Pangalay of sulu is different compared to the pangalays of maguindanao, maranao, and samal. That's just for the dance, how much more for complex issues? |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#64 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 89
|
![]() Quote:
Is he from Mindanao? he should check those words. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#65 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,082
|
![]() Quote:
![]() As for Cato, you should also do that for yourself as well. To date it is probably the best, if not only, book don't specifically on the subject. I am sure it is not perfect, but you would still find much to learn in it. ![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#66 |
Member
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Chicago area
Posts: 327
|
![]()
imo, rule #1 in dating a Kris is, you will always find exceptions.
#2 older Kris are less then 20 inches & have tapered blade tips for stabbing where the older ones evolve to a slashing weapon. In general the older fall into that 16-19" range. Spunger posted some nice examples. The one from VVV is the oldest, interesting the quality control of craftsmanship on these. The Seko Kris either is an exception to rule #2 or in-fact may enforce it; evolving from stabbing to slashing. Last edited by Bill; 28th June 2008 at 10:20 PM. |
![]() |
![]() |
#67 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,082
|
![]() Quote:
Here is an example that i now own (previously owned by Battara and Spunjer) on a website put up by another of you fellow countrymen. If you navigate around this site i think you might also find quite a bit of useful information. ![]() http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...aocollage.html |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#68 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 89
|
![]()
mmmmm cato is one of his references.
Like that maguinadanaon kris should be dated in relation to the same krises known for their simple handles like that-- almost the same angular, clean design like t'boli swords sans bells. One does not have to wonder, geographically, tboli's and maguindanaos are neighbors. |
![]() |
![]() |
#69 |
EAAF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Louisville, KY
Posts: 7,186
|
![]()
David, I did not know that you have that now. I loved that piece.....
|
![]() |
![]() |
#70 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 89
|
![]() Quote:
Yakan's krises tend to have etched designs using lines and dots. Samals' uses pearls and other embellishments such as precious shells. Kalagans' have simple wooden handles and they usually adorn their krises with hairs, vines, etc. Maguindanaos' have distinct handle design, so are the tausugs. I just think that Minadanaoan krises should be surveyed by groups. Mixing and dating them is like mixing and dating weapons of different Indian tribes in America. I don't also believe that Krises have traditional specific names. I don't know why Filipino weaponry researchers have coined names to call filipinio swords. If an english speaking maranao datu says his kris is a regalia kris, I don't think he means the name of his kris is "regalia." There are muslims in Davao for instance who showed me "tul-id nga kris." that doen't mean that the name of that kris is tul-id. Tul-id means straight. They only mean that they have straight krises. Naming Filipino weaponry specially among collectors and dealers is really problematic. I still see people saying itak sword or daga knife. That's just overkill. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#71 | ||||
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,082
|
![]() Quote:
![]() Can you show us an example of these shorter Maranaos regalia kris? It should be noted that regalia by nature is generally passed down through many generation and while dress might be changed and updated these shorter swords you have "seen" might very well be much older kris there by fall right in step with the general point Bill was indeed making. Quote:
Quote:
![]() Quote:
But these other names we are using are merely descriptive names that determine both the profile (dhapur in Indonesia) of the blade and the origin, since these descriptive terms are specific to certain group's dialects. To say "Kalis Tulid" then not only descibes the kris as a straight blade, but also as one coming from the Tausug people. It is not the same at all as saying "daga knife" which is just redundant. It is a way of classifying a kris so that we as collectors get an immediate understanding of what shape and from what area the kris comes. Perhaps you didn't find your way to this page on Federico's site: http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...aponsmain.html Or this one where he describes the different parts of the kris in 3 major dialects. ![]() http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...o/diagram.html BTW, you seem suspicious that Cato is one of Federico's references. I find it difficult to understand how anyone who has spent as much time as you obviously have studying the kris would not have come across Cato's book before. As i pointed out before, it might be flawed in places, but it is to my knowledge the only book published (at least in English) on the subject, so you probably would have found it quoted numerous times in your research. You might also note that Federico also uses many other references in his research for his site: http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...liography.html |
||||
![]() |
![]() |
#72 | ||
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,730
|
![]() Quote:
Quote:
can you tell me your source for this? and how can one differentiate the difference of a sulu kris, Zamboanga kris(?) and a maguindanaon kris? |
||
![]() |
![]() |
#73 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 89
|
![]() Quote:
On surveying by groups. You said everyone knows that it should be that way, but there are still people like spunjer, who thinks krises found in sulu, maguindanao, lanao, sarangani, and zamboanga peninsula are all the same. Even their clothing and manner of dressing are not homogenous. maranao kris |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#74 | ||
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,730
|
![]() Quote:
Quote:
|
||
![]() |
![]() |
#75 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 89
|
![]()
You asked this very obvious question:
"can you tell me your source for this? and how can one differentiate the difference of a sulu kris, Zamboanga kris(?) and a maguindanaon kris?" Ignorance about kris? ha? are you blind? read my post well. I'm even into genetic evidences already and you accused me of ignorance? mmmmm... let the readers judge. I don't even know if you have met yakans, kalagans, and samals. yes, they are muslims too. I won't wonder because you are ilonggo gid. |
![]() |
![]() |
#76 | |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Witness Protection Program
Posts: 1,730
|
![]() Quote:
but please, let's stick to the topic at hand: can you tell me your source for the statement you made in which you said:
also, please back up your accusations about me stating that "thinks krises found in sulu, maguindanao, lanao, sarangani, and zamboanga peninsula are all the same". otherwise, you're just exposing your (lack of) knowledge and as i've mentioned earlier, ignorance in the subject matter. yes, i've read your posts, and it's not making a lick of sense. really. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#77 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,082
|
![]() Quote:
![]() There is one over sized keris (especially on the dress side) on that wall. Over-sized, very showy dress is common for these ritual regalia kris. Can you tell me, have you read any of the reference books on Federico's list? ![]() Last edited by David; 29th June 2008 at 11:01 PM. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#78 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 89
|
![]()
I did years of fieldwork in mindanao. I won't spoon-feed you with data. if you
check I only share tidbits. wait for my book. Not making any sense? I can't blame you. you are used to unfounded, baseless conventions. down to my level? mmmm I don't know you are up there? Time to ignore you. Do your own research. Don't be bookish. I even ask my tausug friends to take genetic testing because I want to go deeper not just superficial stuff. Don't blame me for your ignorance. I am just sharing what I have been doing not the full study or result, so people serious in researching mindanaoan weaponry will also conduct parallel research. There is nothing wrong in sharing seminal ideas, but for someone to nitpick because they stick to false conventions, then that is wrong. spend time in muslim mindanao first, then you will be enlightened. I did. You won't know much about muslim weaponry in Marbel or Mlang. |
![]() |
![]() |
#79 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Virginia
Posts: 520
|
![]()
I don't know it it will help anyone with their research but Project Gutenburg has all 55 volumes of "The Philippine Islands, 1493-1803". Its described as detailing Explorations by Early Navigators, Descriptions of the Islands and Their Peoples, Their History and Records of the Catholic Missions, as Related in Contemporaneous Books and Manuscripts, Showing the Political, Economic, Commercial and Religious Conditions of Those Islands from Their Earliest Relations with European Nations to the Beginning of the Nineteenth Century I don't know if any of these will have descriptions of the kris you are discussing here or not. And as with most records written by explorers you have to interpret them in light of the time and bias of the people
|
![]() |
![]() |
#80 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 89
|
![]() Quote:
as i said, maranao kris used as a regalia is shorter, so length should not be used in dating. I saw maranao krises like that in Marawi. There are still smiths today in lanao who make short krises with that kind of handle. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#81 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,082
|
![]()
C'mon Baganing, you don't seem to know the difference between a punal and a kris. How can i possibly take any of your research seriously.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#82 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,082
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
#83 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 89
|
![]() Quote:
|
|
![]() |
![]() |
#84 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 89
|
![]()
that's what i have been saying all along-- the naming the mindanao weapons is extremely problematic. Some are coined to make them sound exotic.
|
![]() |
![]() |
#85 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,082
|
![]() Quote:
![]() |
|
![]() |
![]() |
#86 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 89
|
![]()
are you telling me that the guy in yellow attire was holding a knife on his side? estimate the length of his kris using his fist. is that a knife?
can you tell me what is punal or punyal? |
![]() |
![]() |
#87 |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,082
|
![]()
Well Baganing, look at the hilt form. Look at the sheath form. These are both common forms for punal and gunong. We can't see the blades in these pictures. Modern punals have gotten to be quite long in some cases. We see them for sale on eBay all the time. I have personally held quite a few of these modern longer punals in my hands on many occasion. I can not see the blades in these pictures, but i can almost guarantee that these blades do not have an asymetric blade like the kris, nor a gangya (insert spelling of your choice). These are not kris. Period. Learn your Moro weapons and we can discuss this later.
![]() |
![]() |
![]() |
#88 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 89
|
![]()
that's what i have been telling you.. hilts, handle heads, and sheaths vary among muslim groups. I even saw samal krises with shells on their sheaths and pearls on the handles and kalagans' with vines and animal hairs.
Talk to a maranao, maybe you won't question his credibility. e-bay is not really a good source for research. I would have used the images there a long time ago. |
![]() |
![]() |
#89 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 89
|
![]()
since you are an expert, can you tell me what punal or punyal is? while you are at it, tell me also its etymology.
I can. can you? |
![]() |
![]() |
#90 | |
Keris forum moderator
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Nova Scotia
Posts: 7,082
|
![]() Quote:
Of course, hilts and sheath vary, but the hilts and sheaths in the picture you linked to clearly shows that these are not kris. I am sorry that you don't fully understand what a kris is, but these are a different type of blade that doesn't have the gangya (separate or otherwise) that is necessary to distinguish the blade as a kris. Some call these punals. Some call them gugongs. But they are not kris. |
|
![]() |
![]() |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|