my last keris

[kai]

Originally Posted by kai

(I've also seen a cengkrong/cundrik with regular gandhik and kembang kacang on the shorter side - kinda with dhungkul vibes.)

Here's the interesting blade with long cengkrong/cundrik-like gandhik and shorter regular gandhik (with kembang pogog).

It is fitted in reverse position as expected for regular cengkrong/cundrik.

Regards,
Kai

[A. G. Maisey]

My understanding for the reversed hilt position of cengkrong blades is that in the far distant past this cengkrong form was much favoured by religious gentlemen, ulamas & suchlike, and to indicate their gentle nature, as opposed to the more unrefined, warlike, aggressive nature of the general populace they wore the hilt in the reverse position, thus making it unsuited to instant use.

A similar practice also applied in Bali.

By mounting the keris in such a way that the hilt is reversed, but when fitted to the scabbard it appears to be in correct dress orientation, the whole point of reverse mount of the hilt has been negated. Whoever did this reverse mount did not know such a hell of a lot about keris tradition, if indeed this blade can be classified as cengkrong.

Any keris with any blade angle can be fitted to any scabbard, this is achieved by altering the angle of the gandar to the atasan/gambar.

Personally, I'm prepared to accept just about any name that somebody comes up with for this dhapur, the seller clearly did not think it qualified as "cengkrong" --- according to his standards --- neither do I, but maybe somebody else might disagree, that's OK, its that person's opinion, and when there can be so much variation in keris terminology --- legitimate or not --- why pursue discussion about something so insignificant?

Is perhaps the social significance of a reversed hilt of slightly more significance?

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

My understanding for the reversed hilt position of cengkrong blades is that in the far distant past this cengkrong form was much favoured by religious gentlemen, ulamas & suchlike, and to indicate their gentle nature, as opposed to the more unrefined, warlike, aggressive nature of the general populace they wore the hilt in the reverse position, thus making it unsuited to instant use.

A similar practice also applied in Bali.

By mounting the keris in such a way that the hilt is reversed, but when fitted to the scabbard it appears to be in correct dress orientation, the whole point of reverse mount of the hilt has been negated. Whoever did this reverse mount did not know such a hell of a lot about keris tradition, if indeed this blade can be classified as cengkrong.

Any keris with any blade angle can be fitted to any scabbard, this is achieved by altering the angle of the gandar to the atasan/gambar.

Personally, I'm prepared to accept just about any name that somebody comes up with for this dhapur, the seller clearly did not think it qualified as "cengkrong" --- according to his standards --- neither do I, but maybe somebody else might disagree, that's OK, its that person's opinion, and when there can be so much variation in keris terminology --- legitimate or not --- why pursue discussion about something so insignificant?

Is perhaps the social significance of a reversed hilt of slightly more significance?

My blade stays in the reverse position when she's in the bed. The handle fits between the fingers on the right side when the kris wants to see outside

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Personally, I'm prepared to accept just about any name that somebody comes up with for this dhapur, the seller clearly did not think it qualified as "cengkrong" --- according to his standards --- neither do I, but maybe somebody else might disagree, that's OK, its that person's opinion, and when there can be so much variation in keris terminology --- legitimate or not --- why pursue discussion about something so insignificant?

Exactly! As i stated in post #33, "Though it possible this is simply a dhapur that falls between the folds. There probably should be a point where we stop trying to squeeze a keris in per-existing categories and simply just enjoy the blade for whatever it is."
I think we sometimes spend too much time debating about names and categories, many of which possibly didn't even exist at the time the blade was actually made. And sometimes we miss the forest for the trees.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by David

Exactly! As i stated in post #33, "Though it possible this is simply a dhapur that falls between the folds. There probably should be a point where we stop trying to squeeze a keris in per-existing categories and simply just enjoy the blade for whatever it is."
I think we sometimes spend too much time debating about names and categories, many of which possibly didn't even exist at the time the blade was actually made. And sometimes we miss the forest for the trees.

my post was based not on the terminology of the dapur which, honestly, I don't care that much, but on the correct insertion of that type of blade in the sheath

[David]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

my post was based not on the terminology of the dapur which, honestly, I don't care that much, but on the correct insertion of that type of blade in the sheath

Well Marco, MY post was not a response to you at all, but rather to Alan's comments concerning the debate about what dhapur to name your blade and the great variations we encounter in keris terminology these days. So i am confused as to why you felt the need to respond to me at all, least of all with a rolled eye emoji, which i consider rather rude.
And i should hope that none of your posts were based on the terminology of kitchens. Is there some reason you continue to insist on using that spelling?

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by David

Well Marco, MY post was not a response to you at all, but rather to Alan's comments concerning the debate about what dhapur to name your blade and the great variations we encounter in keris terminology these days. So i am confused as to why you felt the need to respond to me at all, least of all with a rolled eye emoji, which i consider rather rude.
And i should hope that none of your posts were based on the terminology of kitchens. Is there some reason you continue to insist on using that spelling?

sorry David. I wanted to put the smiley with the eye that winks ... I clicked wrong. I'm sorry. What does terminologists of kitchens mean? I'm Italian and I don't know the meaning

[A. G. Maisey]

Marco, please see my post #23

[David]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

sorry David. I wanted to put the smiley with the eye that winks ... I clicked wrong. I'm sorry. What does terminologists of kitchens mean? I'm Italian and I don't know the meaning

Well language on an international forum is always a challenge. So it is possible that you did not fully understand what Alan was trying to tell you in post #23.
The word "dapur" that you are using actually translates to the english word "kitchen" in Bahasa Indonesian. I have seen this word used in certain keris literature, but it is not the correct word for the shape or profile of a keris. Most of the words that we use in keris terminology that apply to Javanese keris are in fact Javanese words, not Bahasa Indonesian. The correct word you are looking for here is the Javanese word "dhapur", which translates into English as "shape" or "form".
There are a number of cases like this where a misused spelling gets repeated enough times that it becomes a common mistake. "Peksi" is another one i see frequently when referring to the tang of a blade. That word actually means "bird", often meaning a chicken, but the proper term is actually spelled "pesi".
I hope that clears things up.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by kai

Here's the interesting blade with long cengkrong/cundrik-like gandhik and shorter regular gandhik (with kembang pogog).

It is fitted in reverse position as expected for regular cengkrong/cundrik.

Regards,
Kai

yes, but from your last pic, it's no possible to understand the verse of the blade inside the sheath

[A. G. Maisey]

As you wish Marco.

But it does sometimes assist in understanding keris tradition if one attempts to understand the position of the keris within the society from which it comes, and that understanding must take account of time.

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

As you wish Marco.

Sure: simple.. intuitive and fast

[A. G. Maisey]

Marco, my own intuition comes from the society & culture in which I was raised, I live in Australia, my ancestors came from Ireland, Cornwall & Scotland, with one outsider from Spain or Portugal (he was a bit of a ring in).

But in order to understand Javanese intuition, or for that matter, the intuition of any society & culture other than our own, we do need to devote a large part of our time to the relevant study.

This keris under discussion is a Javanese keris, in order to gain an understanding of this keris, should we try to apply a Javanese paradigm, or a paradigm that comes from a different culture & society?

[Marcokeris]

sorry..."sure, intuitive and fast" ...to put a book on sale years ago beside of this kerisforum.. NO!

[Marcokeris]

Alan of course, certainly a Javanese paradigm! .. A paradigm from which I am far from and aware of it.... and I love listening to the Javanese when they teach me somethings about keris

[Marcokeris]

Originally Posted by Marcokeris

Alan of course, certainly a Javanese paradigm! .. A paradigm from which I am far from and aware of it.... and I love listening to the Javanese people when they teach me somethings about keris

n

[David]

Originally Posted by kai

Here's the interesting blade with long cengkrong/cundrik-like gandhik and shorter regular gandhik (with kembang pogog).

It is fitted in reverse position as expected for regular cengkrong/cundrik.

Regards,
Kai

Well i suppose, however incorrect i might be about it, i was considering cengkrong/cundrik as outside the category of the standard keris. And again, i do personally would not consider Marco's example to be a cengkrong or cundrik. So i still have never seen a keris fitted to a sheath in that manner.
I am not sure that i agree that i see cengkrong/cundrik as part of the Maheas family.
As to the example you posted next, which i assume you posted to illustrate your point (?), it is a confusing one because it also present a kembang pogog on one side. And if i am not mistaken, both the hilt and the kembang pogog are oriented in the normal manner in the wrongko, not reversed.
If you have any examples of how regular cengkrong/cundrik are oriented in their sheaths i would love to see them as i don't believe i have ever seen one with its sheath.