Solingen steel

[fernando]

In opposition to museums often 'forgeting' to answer our questions, this time a quick response arrived ...


"Buenas tardes, me disculpen las molestias.
Sucede que perdí la dirección de correo electrónico del Sr. Germán Dueñas Beraiz, y les pido por favor que dirijan este correo a ese señor "

Good afternoon, i apologize for the inconvenience.
It happens that i lost the email address of Mr. Germán Dueñas Beraiz, and I ask you to please address this email to that Gentleman.



" Respecto a los espaderos de Toledo, alguien en mi foro de armas antiguas ha citado una información de que, hacia 1587, Toledo consideró necesario reforzar el número de sus espaderos con artesanos llegados de Solingen.
Piensa el Sr. Beraiz que esto realmente sucedió … y en el contexto mencionado ? “

Regarding the swordsmiths of Toledo, someone in my antique weapons forum has cited information that, around 1587, Toledo considered it necessary to reinforce the number of its swordsmiths with artisans from Solingen.
Does Mr. Beraiz think that this really happened… and in the mentioned context ?

En relación a su consulta decir que no existe constancia documental de la presencia de espaderos procedentes de Solingen en los talleres toledanos de finales del XVI. Resulta muy improbable su presencia teniendo en cuenta el sistema de producción artesanal de los espaderos toledanos, que artesanos extranjeros trabajaran en Toledo en las fechas citadas.

In relation to your query, to say that there is no documentary evidence of the presence of swordsmiths from Solingen in the Toledo workshops at the end of the 16th century. It results highly unlikely, taking into account the artisanal production system of Toledo swordsmiths, that foreign craftsmen worked in Toledo on the dates mentioned.


(Mister Beraiz is the Chief Curator of the Arms Department in the Toledo Army Museum)

[urbanspaceman]

Thank-you Fernando.
I have found it unwise to trust everything in Bezdek's research absolutely but these are the details he gives based on Solingen parish and guild records; these are the departure dates:

1547: Andreas Munsten zu Elberfeld; 1565: Ceiles Lobach; 1580: Heinrich Kohl; 1600: Hans Ohlig; 1620: Clemens Dinger the Elder.

Munsten was an armourer (?)
Lobach is listed as produing swept and cup hilt rapiers.
Kohl was a hilt maker.
Dinger and Ohlig were grinders.

[fernando]

Now you may filter yourself !
Mind you, this could be a question of approach; that some Solingen smiths decided to migrate to Spain (Toledo) as a personal option, it is not that it was Toledo guild (no factory yet, right ?) that contract them to reinforce their ranks.
In fact, the table built by Palomares includes a Andrès Munestèn (position #8), as having worked both in Toledo and Calatayiud; we know that his brother Peter migrated to Hownslow.

See notes by Wendelin Boeheim (Leipsig 1890).


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[urbanspaceman]

Yes, Fernando, it seems more appropriate to mark these men as moving out of their own volition rather than being sent-for.
ps
call me Keith.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by urbanspaceman

... call me Keith.

Alright ... Keith .

Let me then 'punish' you with a couple further notes on the Toledo/Solingen saga...

One is about German Dueñas Beraiz pointing out the flaws in the Palomares table, namely on the names and origin of Toledo smiths ...

More flagrant is the case of the German swordsmith Andreas Munsten, (No. 8) who, after saying that he also worked in Calatayud, he locates him in Toledo, Castilianizing his name by that of Andres Munesten. This error perhaps stems from the fact that this swordsmith from Solingen made blades copying the typologies, motifs and letters that appear on the Toledo blades.


The other is about the considerations written in an article by Esperanza Ruiz, ESPADEROS TOLEDANOS,

IV - An Industry that is lost.
The 17th century was a decadent century for Toledo. The departure of the court, the demographic decline, the expulsion of the Moorish and other causes will be the ruin of the Toledan industries. The silk looms are reduced and the swordsmiths do not suffer any less from its consequences.
The thriving Toledo sword industry is about to disappear. The swordsmiths that in the 16th century were grouped in one of the richest and most flourishing guilds, began a rapid decline in the middle of the 17th century and one of the many causes was to allow the entry of swords from Germany, very abundant and cheap.
Master swordsmiths and officers are forced by circumstance to carve knives, scissors, and razors.


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[urbanspaceman]

So, are we perhaps looking at the importation of certain skills to revitalise the industry?
As business declined, we would see more and more craftsmen retiring and no new apprenticeships being offered, hence a loss of skills. You will note the variety of skills across the five immigrants mentioned; perhaps this explains it.
This happened here on Tyneside: as the shipbuilding industry declined, trades and skills were being lost. Experience was fading away and it was not long before we had to import experienced and skilled workers to instruct the new apprentices.

[fernando]

Note that the Toledan decline took place mid 17th century, whereas Munster (and maybe others) moved to Spain still during their flourishing period.