Satanic dagger, Age & country of Origin?

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Andrew

It must be a full moon...

Everyone take a breath and relax, please. There's nothing worth getting upset with each other over here. Let's also keep in mind that internet discussion boards are, at best, an imperfect communication medium.

Factor in cultural and language differences and, well, you know.

Thankyou Andrew, I hope nobody takes any of this too deeply, it is just my quest to find someone with some actual expieriance or empirical evidence of these cast, 19th century european daggers.

I live in hope. or as satanists say.

"The devill made me do it"

Spiral

[katana]

Originally Posted by spiral

Well I thought of thice piece {the central one, {old photo I had handy .}
But then I am intrested in symbolism.

As its neither European, 19th century, nor has a cast handle the evidence of this piece in how to look at the scabbard is worthless in this discusian though.

It looks like your learning though if you apply the same concepts to the dagger featured , what conclusians do you then reach?


Spiral

Hi Spiral,
the Swastika 'question' was aimed at the 'audience' .....to demonstrate how symbolism can be mis-interpreted .......not you specifically...I should have made that clearer.

[Bill M]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Spiral,
the Swastika 'question' was aimed at the 'audience' .....to demonstrate how symbolism can be mis-interpreted .......not you specifically...I should have made that clearer.

As I understand it the swastica was a Tibetan symbol, long before Adolph H. came on the scene. It typically depicts a wheel turning in a life enhancing clockwise direction with sparks flying off.

Hitler was accused of using this symbol turning in a counter-clockwise direction meaning anti-life. While this is possible, Tibetans used it both ways, though usual was clockwise.

There was some speculation that Hitler's power, and his charisma was VERY powerful, was enhanced by teachings by G. I. Gurdjieff who studied in Tibet and that the swastica was one of his power symbols.

Also red, black and white are the common three colors used in many animistic societies indicating the High Kingdom (White) the earth plane (red) and the lower world (black - sometimes blue, but usually black).

My point is again that symbolism both a cultural and personal. Depending on your point of view.

Still there is something that reaches a universal depth. Karl Jung had some interesting ideas there, but this is not the Forum for me to continue these musings........

Missed katana's link before. Good stuff there. [reason to edit]

[Jim McDougall]

I think the most interesting factor in this thread is that somewhat specious assessment or perception of an unusually decorated dagger from the original post evolved into some fascinating discussion and posts concerning some extremely esoteric material. Subsequent review and presentation of developing opinions and some very well supported ideas led to very plausible solutions to the meaning of the unusual motif. I also think that for the most part the members have maintained outstanding control despite some unfortunately barbed comments that were entirely unnecessary.

Many of these, however, in my 'opinion' were perhaps wry, misguided attempts at humor? that perhaps arose from either misinterpretation or perception of comments that appear to derive from flawed linguistic syntax or misspelled words. As has been noted, written communication typically lacks necessary sensitivity, and often transliteration completely inhibits delivery in the case of humor.

In the instance of Spiral reemphasizing my own faux pas in expressing an unsupported observation concerning the viewing of scabbards, despite the manner in which he expressed his comments, I presume that he did not intend to sound insulting. Actually it was a good reminder that one cannot be too careful in making statements in friendly discussion, even if you carefully qualify your comment. It is important to remember that the comments you make, regardless of how well qualified, are not necessarily well interpreted by those who read them.

This thread has been extremely informative, and I have very much enjoyed the posts and discussion, though of course, inconclusive. I think we have all learned quite a lot about these theme daggers as well as on the elusive daggers of occult regalia. The topic has proven, as may be expected, extremely difficult, as it does not lend itself well to the expectations of those who adhere closely to restrictive academic perameters regardless of the character of the discussion at hand.

In all, a very exhilerating thread!

All best regards,
Jim

[VANDOO]

I MUST ADMIT I AM A BIT SHY ABOUT GETTING INTO THIS AS I AM NOT AN EXPERT IN THIS TYPE OF ARTEFACT NOR HAVE I A LARGE COLLECTION OF THEM AND HAVE NOT CAREEFULLY RESEARCHED THE SUBJECT OF SATAN WORSHIP NOR PRACTICED IT. SO ANYTHING I SAY WILL BASED ON LOGIC AND MY PERSONEL OPINIONS SO I HOPE I DON'T WASTE ANYONES TIME , AND I HOPE I DON'T GET MY TAIL FEATHERS SCORCHED OFF

I HAVE SEEN AND HANDLED QUITE A FEW KNIVES OF THIS TYPE FROM THE EARLY 1960'S UNTIL THE LAST ONE IN THE 1990'S. THEY WERE AT GUN SHOWS AND WERE ALWAYS TOO HIGH PRICED FOR ME TO EVER OWN ONE BUT I ALWAYS ENJOYED LOOKING AT THE VARIETY AND EXCELLENT WORKMANSHIP. I DON'T REMBER EVER SEEING A EXAMPLE THAT SHOWED A LOT OF WEAR FROM USE ALTHOUGH THEY DID SHOW AGE AND A FEW HAD BEEN ABUSED BY SOME CHILD OR ADULT DOLT. I HAVE ONLY SEEN ONE EXAMPLE MISSING ITS SCABBARD THIS WOULD INDICATE TO ME THAT THE DAGGERS WERE USUALLY VERY WELL TAKEN CARE OF AND WERE VERY EXPENSIVE WHEN THEY WERE MADE AND DURING THE PERIOD OF THEIR USE. OFTEN THEY WERE DESCRIBED AS WITCHCRAFT DAGGERS OR ASSOCIATED WITH SECERET SOCIETYS.

I THINK THEY USUALLY WERE CUSTOM MADE OR TO SHOW OFF THE SKILL OF THE MAKERS AND REFLECTED THE CURRENT FASHONS OF THE SOCIETY AT THE TIME. I ALSO EXPECT THAT ONLY THE RICH OR WEALTHY PEOPLE BELONGING TO A SECERET SOCIETY COULD HAVE AFFORDED THEM. THERE WERE MANY SECRET SOCIETYS IN THE PAST IN MOST COUNTRYS SOME STILL EXHIST AND MANY DO NOT. THE SKULL SYMBOL IS OFTEN A REMINDER OF MANS MORTALITY AS WE ALL PONDER DEATH FROM TIME TO TIME. MOST OF THE OTHER SYMBOLS PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED ALSO HAVE SEVERAL WAYS OF INTREPETING THEM.
MANY OF THE THINGS SAID TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH SATAN WORSHIP WERE RELATED TO THE OLD IDEAS OF NATURE WORSHIP WHICH IS NOT SATANISM OR WITCHCRAFT BUT A REVERENCE FOR NATURE AND THE FORCE OR FORCES THAT CREATED EVERYTHING. IN THE PROCESS OF ONE RELIGION DISPOSING OF A OLDER LOCAL RELIGION ALL SUCH BELIEFS AND THEIR SYMBOLS WERE SAID TO BE OF THE DEVIL AND FEARSOME EXAMPLES WERE MADE OF PEOPLE TO TRY AND STAMP OUT SUCH PRACTICES.
MANY SECRET SOCIETYS EVOLVED FROM THIS AND BEING SECRET I AM SURE THEY HAD SECRET SIGNS AND MEETINGS SO IF HISTORY NOTES THEM AT ALL IT WILL BE FROM THE VIEWS OF THOSE WHO FIND AND DESTROY THEM. IF THEY BELONGED TO SUCH A SOCIETY AND IT IS STILL IN EXHISTANCE I DOUBT THAT THE KNIFE WOULD HAVE BEEN SOLD UNLESS A THIEF TOOK IT.
PERHAPS THERE ARE THOSE WHO WORSHIP SATAN AND HOPE TO GAIN WEALTH AND POWER THRU IT BUT I WOULD THINK THEY WOULD BE FAR AND FEW IN BETWEEN THROUGHT HISTORY. MANY OF THE THINGS YOU READ ABOUT BLACK MASSES, HUMAN SACRIFICE, SUMMONING DEAMONS , VAMPIRES, DRAGONS AND ORGES ARE BASED ON OLD TALES, BOOKS, MOVIES AND SUCH. SOME CHOOSE TO BELIEVE IN THESE STORYS AND TRY TO BECOME A MASTER OF THE BLACK ARTS OR A WICKED WITCH AND MAY DO SOME TERRIBLE SECRET THINGS AND BECOME FEARED AS A DEAMON IN HUMAN FORM. THIS IS THEIR DOING BUT I FEEL THEY DON'T GET ANY REAL POWER FROM IT AND IT IS A FORM OF ROLE PLAYING GAME. THE DEVIL WILL OF COURSE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS FOR HIS OWN ENDS BUT IS A FRIEND TO NO MAN.

FIGURES FROM GREEK, ROMAN, EGYPTIAN AND OTHER TIMES AND COUNTRYS HAVE BECOME THE FASHON IN ART THROUGHOUT HISTORY. PERHAPS THE INDIVIDUAL WHO BOUGHT OR ORDERED THE DAGGER MADE WOULD KNOW WHAT ALL THE SYMBOLS STOOD FOR, PERHAPS NOT. A SECRET SOCIETY WOULD KNOW WHAT THE SYMBOLS STOOD FOR AND THEY WOULD BE A PART OF THEIR CREDO.
I WOULD THINK THAT ONE WHO PRACTEDED THE BLACK ARTS WOULD HAVE SOME PROTECTIVE SPELLS AND DEADLY CURSES INCORPORATED INTO THE DESIGNS UNLESS CURSES AND SPELLS CAN ONLY BE SPOKEN.? BUT I DON'T SEE WHY THEY WOULD HAVE RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS OF THE CHURCH AND SUCH ON A IMPLEMENT THEY PLANNED TO USE TO DESICRATE THE CHURCH AND RELIGION.

SOME POSSIBILITYS FOR THE ORIGINAL DAGGER WOULD BE
1. ONE OR MORE EXAMPLES WERE MADE TO BE PRESENTED AS GIFTS TO SOME IMPORTANT PERSON. PERHAPS VICTOR HUGO HIMSELF? IF YOU COULD PROVE THAT IT WOULD BE WORTH MORE THAN A MERE SATANIC DAGGER

2. AN ARTIST LIKED THE BOOK AND WAS INSPIRED TO MAKE THE KNIFE OR SOMEONE ELSE COMMISIONED IT AS HE WAS A FAN OF VICTOR HUGO.

3. THE VICTOR HUGO FAN CLUB HAD THEM MADE IN THE THOUSANDS FOR ALL MEMBERS OR NOT

I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY OF THESE DAGGERS TAKEN APART BEFORE AND WONDER IF VERY MANY KNIVES WERE MADE WITH THE DETACHABLE BLADE AND IF IT MIGHT HAVE HAD MULTIPLE BLADES FOR DIFFERENT USES?

MY GUT FEELING ABOUT THIS TYPE OF KNIFE IS THAT IT WAS NOT MADE FOR USE BY THOSE WHO WORSHIP SATAN. BUT IN THE YEARS SINCE ITS CREATION WHO KNOWS WHO HAS HAD IT OR WHAT THEY HAVE USED IT FOR. AS THEY HAVE BEEN SOLD AS DAGGERS RELATED TO WITCHCRAFT, ECT. AT LEAST SINCE THE EARLY 1960'S.

SORRY I CAN'T LAY ALL THE INFORMATION OF THE TYPE AND THE HISTORY ON YOU . BUT REGARDLESS OF WHAT IT IS ITS A REAL SWEET DAGGER AND IT HAS BEEN A VERY INTERESTING DISCUSSION.

PS. THE SWASTKA IS ALSO AN ANCIANT SYMBOL USED BY SOME OF THE AMERICAN INDIAN TRIBES, A VERY OLD SYMBOL BUT NOTHING EVIL ABOUT IT.

[katana]

Intrigued by ‘Satanistic’ daggers I began investigating one of the daggers you have posted…..
i.e the 1871 Satanic knife brokered by Bernard Levine some years ago for $10,000.


On Bernard’s site the knife is stated as marked “ Fait a Nancy en 1871 par Florian ROYAL” this translates to “ Made in Nancy in 1871 for Royal Florian’ .

Seems strange that a ‘covert’ dagger would have where its made and whom for…clearly marked on it……

Historically, in 1871 ….

The Franco-Prussian War (July 19, 1870 – May 10, 1871) was declared by France on Prussia, which was backed by the North German Confederation and the south German states of Baden, Württemberg and Bavaria. The conflict marked the culmination of tension between the two powers following Prussia's rise to dominance in Germany, which before 1866 was still a loose federation of quasi-independent territories.

More info here (yes Spiral, Wikipedia again… …..there are many other references but this one is fairly concise )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Prussian_War


This war caused political and social upheaval….


1871-1918:
At the time of the French defeat of 1871, the German-speaking parts of the département of Meurthe and of the département of Moselle were merged to build one of the 3 districts of the Alsace-Lorraine Reichsland:


France lost Alsace-Lorraine in 1871, Nancy lost the arrondissements of Sarrebourg and Château-Salins which, having become German, were united with the Diocese of Metz. Nancy however annexed the arrondissement of Briey which remained French, and was detached from the Diocese of Metz (consistorial decrees of 10 and 14 July, 1874).


The annexation of a part of the French territory increased the importance of Nancy. As an out- post, situated near the border, it was a city full of barracks but, at the same time, it was a place of safety for a great number of industrialists who refused to adopt German nationality. The drift from the land also benefited the city since much housing had to be built.


Now we have a historical context to which we can use to view this knife and its possible ‘symbology’. Yes it has, at first glance demonic conertations, but I feel there are other possible explainations to the dagger’s decoration.



1. The skull and crossbones…….death, mortality

2. The sacred heart (on hilt)…. The Sacred Heart of Jesus is today one of the most recognizable symbols of the Catholic faith. The image originated in France near the end of the seventeenth century. The bishop of Marseille, Monseigneur de Belsunce, consecrated his diocese to the Sacred Heart in an effort to spare the region from plague. The plague passed over Marseille, and the symbol became very popular, associated with acts of charity and piety and used as a charm against plague.
3.The cross of Lorraine (small on hilt) …… In the XIXth century, the cross of Lorraine was included among the iconographical attributes of Joan of Arc, who was from Lorraine. After the incorporation of a great part of Lorraine to Germany following the 1870 war, the cross of Lorraine became a symbol of memory and resistance.
The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen. In the Middle-Ages, the hill was a place of prayer for the Crusaders, and received the name of Zion (in French, Sion). It is said that René de Vaudémont defeated Charles le Téméraire under the banner of Notre-Dame de Sion.
4. The Owl…….(as already discussed) In many parts of the world, owls have been associated with death and misfortune, likely due to their nocturnal activity and common screeching call. However, owls have also been associated with wisdom and prosperity as a result of frequently being companion animals for goddesses.
5. The Torch…… A torch, like a candle, represents life. A torch seen ablaze represents immortality, the everlasting life, and wisdom (like the lamp--a symbol of knowledge). Conversely, an inverted torch symbolizes death--a life extinguished. However, the inverted torch in this case….is still ablaze…..flames rising upward. (If it was put right way up the flames would be travelling downward ?) I believe that this translates to ‘not quite dead’ as if ready to spring to life when the opportunity arises……..ie the French beaten but the flames of resistance is very much alive
6. The crossed swords…… as symbol of armed force……being crossed could have religious conertations or as an idiom means to have a grevance or disagreement with. Perhaps with the torch symbol means ‘we (the French) maybe down……but are ready and waiting to defeat German rule…..
7. The demon/devil…….winged examples are usually shown as having membraneous wings (like a bat) as feathers are associated with angels. This Demon has the ‘framework’ for such wings but no membrane visible…..this suggests to me the demon is unable to fly and is therefore….somehow ‘disabled’.
Its arms are crossed…….seems to be waiting,….. or showing defiance ??
Its legs are entwined , it seems immobile, trapped………
We could summise, with the political/social problems at the time…..that this could be symbolic of the ‘evil intent’ or feeling against the Germans that at present, is not at ‘full strength’ and that the ‘beast’ is waiting for the opportunity to gather its power.

There are other demon/devil decoration on the Hilt, which I think could be just…..decoration……
Carvers of the earlier Romanesque period, especially in France, had produced more monsters and demons than any others in the whole history of Christian art, occupying prominent positions such as door heads, corbels and porches. Indeed, they occasionally outnumbered the Christian images, and their use was condemned by St Bernard of Clairvaux in the twelfth century. During the Gothic period they very gradually assumed minor positions, sinking at last to the level of mere parody. It has been observed that such carvings are almost antipathetic to Romanesque and Gothic architecture, and represent survivals of earlier pagan beliefs still dear to the people. The prominent place given to the demon in the picture is symbolic, as is its pairing with another satanic creature, the bat, which (like the owl) was singled out for unfavourable mention in the Old Testament. The devilish position of bats in European folklore is usually explained by their demonic faces and inverted life-style. (They live by night, appear to 'see' in the dark and hang upside down when they sleep.)

In conclusion, there is a distinct possibility that this knife, although beautifully made, is a ‘commemorative’ inspired knife, sure it has, what many would describe as satanistic decoration. But the facts and views above, cast serious doubt on this definitely being a ‘Satanic’ dagger.


The other dagger, that Spiral and I both posted......has a simple, functional look about it, the figure on the hilt is indeed 'demonic' and seems more likely to be 'satanic' than the other two.......mind you....the figure looks familiar..............A Batman fantasy knife....afterall he did live in Gothic ....sorry, Gotham City


ADDED NOTE....the owl on the sheath is 'perched' on a 'cresent' or possibly a representation of The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen.

[Bill M]

Excellent post Katana! I am continually amazed by the depth of discussion here.

Glad that you are keeping it in the realm of ethnographic weapons, ie, the dagger(s).

Also that you examine in terms of historical and geographical context. Very important!

Good job!

[Jim McDougall]

Excellent Katana!!!!
Outstanding and fascinating information and very well presented. You are really adding some great dimension to material associated to these daggers and I am very much enjoying the historical data you are sharing.

Vandoo, some excellent perceptive ideas and observations, that really set us to thinking more on these daggers and the symbolism. I like your note on the possibility of such daggers with threaded screw on blades having alternative motif for varying occasions, interesting idea that recalls a number of edged weapon forms with interchangeable components.

It is interesting that secret societies, occultism and paganism, regarded as sinister and with suspicion , are parallelled in varying degree in the animism, folk religion and secret societies of ethnographic cultures that are regarded as significant in a generally more positive sense it seems in most cases. In that sense, it seems almost that these very esoteric weapons are in a fashion the ethnographica of our own culture .

The thread keeps getting better and better!!
I keep wanting more of this intriguing data and the interesting arcane weapons being posted. Thank you!

All best regards,
Jim

[spiral]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I think the most interesting factor in this thread is that somewhat specious assessment or perception of an unusually decorated dagger from the original post evolved into some fascinating discussion and posts concerning some extremely esoteric material. Subsequent review and presentation of developing opinions and some very well supported ideas led to very plausible solutions to the meaning of the unusual motif. I also think that for the most part the members have maintained outstanding control despite some unfortunately barbed comments that were entirely unnecessary.

Many of these, however, in my 'opinion' were perhaps wry, misguided attempts at humor? that perhaps arose from either misinterpretation or perception of comments that appear to derive from flawed linguistic syntax or misspelled words. As has been noted, written communication typically lacks necessary sensitivity, and often transliteration completely inhibits delivery in the case of humor.

In the instance of Spiral reemphasizing my own faux pas in expressing an unsupported observation concerning the viewing of scabbards, despite the manner in which he expressed his comments, I presume that he did not intend to sound insulting. Actually it was a good reminder that one cannot be too careful in making statements in friendly discussion, even if you carefully qualify your comment. It is important to remember that the comments you make, regardless of how well qualified, are not necessarily well interpreted by those who read them.

This thread has been extremely informative, and I have very much enjoyed the posts and discussion, though of course, inconclusive. I think we have all learned quite a lot about these theme daggers as well as on the elusive daggers of occult regalia. The topic has proven, as may be expected, extremely difficult, as it does not lend itself well to the expectations of those who adhere closely to restrictive academic perameters regardless of the character of the discussion at hand.

In all, a very exhilerating thread!

All best regards,
Jim

Thankyou Jim,, My error perhaps but your statements & judgments in friendly discusians always sounds like prounocmemts of authority......

A great skill indeed.Many teachers have it.

I do need to point out though that I didnt reemphasise your "faux paus" Wolveix did... I just ansered his comment.

I did ask for actual evidence, sorry if that too academic a request, just to find someone on this forum with expierience of 19th century cast figural knives & or satanic gaggers doesnt strike me as particularily academic though.

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by katana

Intrigued by ‘Satanistic’ daggers I began investigating one of the daggers you have posted…..
i.e the 1871 Satanic knife brokered by Bernard Levine some years ago for $10,000.


On Bernard’s site the knife is stated as marked “ Fait a Nancy en 1871 par Florian ROYAL” this translates to “ Made in Nancy in 1871 for Royal Florian’ .

Seems strange that a ‘covert’ dagger would have where its made and whom for…clearly marked on it……

Historically, in 1871 ….

The Franco-Prussian War (July 19, 1870 – May 10, 1871) was declared by France on Prussia, which was backed by the North German Confederation and the south German states of Baden, Württemberg and Bavaria. The conflict marked the culmination of tension between the two powers following Prussia's rise to dominance in Germany, which before 1866 was still a loose federation of quasi-independent territories.

More info here (yes Spiral, Wikipedia again… …..there are many other references but this one is fairly concise )

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Prussian_War


This war caused political and social upheaval….


1871-1918:
At the time of the French defeat of 1871, the German-speaking parts of the département of Meurthe and of the département of Moselle were merged to build one of the 3 districts of the Alsace-Lorraine Reichsland:


France lost Alsace-Lorraine in 1871, Nancy lost the arrondissements of Sarrebourg and Château-Salins which, having become German, were united with the Diocese of Metz. Nancy however annexed the arrondissement of Briey which remained French, and was detached from the Diocese of Metz (consistorial decrees of 10 and 14 July, 1874).


The annexation of a part of the French territory increased the importance of Nancy. As an out- post, situated near the border, it was a city full of barracks but, at the same time, it was a place of safety for a great number of industrialists who refused to adopt German nationality. The drift from the land also benefited the city since much housing had to be built.


Now we have a historical context to which we can use to view this knife and its possible ‘symbology’. Yes it has, at first glance demonic conertations, but I feel there are other possible explainations to the dagger’s decoration.



1. The skull and crossbones…….death, mortality

2. The sacred heart (on hilt)…. The Sacred Heart of Jesus is today one of the most recognizable symbols of the Catholic faith. The image originated in France near the end of the seventeenth century. The bishop of Marseille, Monseigneur de Belsunce, consecrated his diocese to the Sacred Heart in an effort to spare the region from plague. The plague passed over Marseille, and the symbol became very popular, associated with acts of charity and piety and used as a charm against plague.
3.The cross of Lorraine (small on hilt) …… In the XIXth century, the cross of Lorraine was included among the iconographical attributes of Joan of Arc, who was from Lorraine. After the incorporation of a great part of Lorraine to Germany following the 1870 war, the cross of Lorraine became a symbol of memory and resistance.
The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen. In the Middle-Ages, the hill was a place of prayer for the Crusaders, and received the name of Zion (in French, Sion). It is said that René de Vaudémont defeated Charles le Téméraire under the banner of Notre-Dame de Sion.
4. The Owl…….(as already discussed) In many parts of the world, owls have been associated with death and misfortune, likely due to their nocturnal activity and common screeching call. However, owls have also been associated with wisdom and prosperity as a result of frequently being companion animals for goddesses.
5. The Torch…… A torch, like a candle, represents life. A torch seen ablaze represents immortality, the everlasting life, and wisdom (like the lamp--a symbol of knowledge). Conversely, an inverted torch symbolizes death--a life extinguished. However, the inverted torch in this case….is still ablaze…..flames rising upward. (If it was put right way up the flames would be travelling downward ?) I believe that this translates to ‘not quite dead’ as if ready to spring to life when the opportunity arises……..ie the French beaten but the flames of resistance is very much alive
6. The crossed swords…… as symbol of armed force……being crossed could have religious conertations or as an idiom means to have a grevance or disagreement with. Perhaps with the torch symbol means ‘we (the French) maybe down……but are ready and waiting to defeat German rule…..
7. The demon/devil…….winged examples are usually shown as having membraneous wings (like a bat) as feathers are associated with angels. This Demon has the ‘framework’ for such wings but no membrane visible…..this suggests to me the demon is unable to fly and is therefore….somehow ‘disabled’.
Its arms are crossed…….seems to be waiting,….. or showing defiance ??
Its legs are entwined , it seems immobile, trapped………
We could summise, with the political/social problems at the time…..that this could be symbolic of the ‘evil intent’ or feeling against the Germans that at present, is not at ‘full strength’ and that the ‘beast’ is waiting for the opportunity to gather its power.

There are other demon/devil decoration on the Hilt, which I think could be just…..decoration……
Carvers of the earlier Romanesque period, especially in France, had produced more monsters and demons than any others in the whole history of Christian art, occupying prominent positions such as door heads, corbels and porches. Indeed, they occasionally outnumbered the Christian images, and their use was condemned by St Bernard of Clairvaux in the twelfth century. During the Gothic period they very gradually assumed minor positions, sinking at last to the level of mere parody. It has been observed that such carvings are almost antipathetic to Romanesque and Gothic architecture, and represent survivals of earlier pagan beliefs still dear to the people. The prominent place given to the demon in the picture is symbolic, as is its pairing with another satanic creature, the bat, which (like the owl) was singled out for unfavourable mention in the Old Testament. The devilish position of bats in European folklore is usually explained by their demonic faces and inverted life-style. (They live by night, appear to 'see' in the dark and hang upside down when they sleep.)

In conclusion, there is a distinct possibility that this knife, although beautifully made, is a ‘commemorative’ inspired knife, sure it has, what many would describe as satanistic decoration. But the facts and views above, cast serious doubt on this definitely being a ‘Satanic’ dagger.


The other dagger, that Spiral and I both posted......has a simple, functional look about it, the figure on the hilt is indeed 'demonic' and seems more likely to be 'satanic' than the other two.......mind you....the figure looks familiar..............A Batman fantasy knife....afterall he did live in Gothic ....sorry, Gotham City


ADDED NOTE....the owl on the sheath is 'perched' on a 'cresent' or possibly a representation of The hill of Sion-Vaudémont, located 20 km south of Nancy, is the most important symbol of Lorrain patriotism. The hill has the shape of a horseshoe and is therefore considered as a good omen.

Thanks Katana!

Indeed theres is tons of information by Bernard Levine one of the worlds leading authoritys on these daggers as well as other American & European knives & daggers.

Sadley I am not allowed to share it though. {rules are rules.}


The comments on the BRL satanic dagger are valid from photo shown but if you search a little more you can find many closeups & breakdowns of the analisis of that dagger , many of which you cant see in that photo.

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I MUST ADMIT I AM A BIT SHY ABOUT GETTING INTO THIS AS I AM NOT AN EXPERT IN THIS TYPE OF ARTEFACT NOR HAVE I A LARGE COLLECTION OF THEM AND HAVE NOT CAREEFULLY RESEARCHED THE SUBJECT OF SATAN WORSHIP NOR PRACTICED IT. SO ANYTHING I SAY WILL BASED ON LOGIC AND MY PERSONEL OPINIONS SO I HOPE I DON'T WASTE ANYONES TIME , AND I HOPE I DON'T GET MY TAIL FEATHERS SCORCHED OFF

I HAVE SEEN AND HANDLED QUITE A FEW KNIVES OF THIS TYPE FROM THE EARLY 1960'S UNTIL THE LAST ONE IN THE 1990'S. THEY WERE AT GUN SHOWS AND WERE ALWAYS TOO HIGH PRICED FOR ME TO EVER OWN ONE BUT I ALWAYS ENJOYED LOOKING AT THE VARIETY AND EXCELLENT WORKMANSHIP. I DON'T REMBER EVER SEEING A EXAMPLE THAT SHOWED A LOT OF WEAR FROM USE ALTHOUGH THEY DID SHOW AGE AND A FEW HAD BEEN ABUSED BY SOME CHILD OR ADULT DOLT. I HAVE ONLY SEEN ONE EXAMPLE MISSING ITS SCABBARD THIS WOULD INDICATE TO ME THAT THE DAGGERS WERE USUALLY VERY WELL TAKEN CARE OF AND WERE VERY EXPENSIVE WHEN THEY WERE MADE AND DURING THE PERIOD OF THEIR USE. OFTEN THEY WERE DESCRIBED AS WITCHCRAFT DAGGERS OR ASSOCIATED WITH SECERET SOCIETYS.

I THINK THEY USUALLY WERE CUSTOM MADE OR TO SHOW OFF THE SKILL OF THE MAKERS AND REFLECTED THE CURRENT FASHONS OF THE SOCIETY AT THE TIME. I ALSO EXPECT THAT ONLY THE RICH OR WEALTHY PEOPLE BELONGING TO A SECERET SOCIETY COULD HAVE AFFORDED THEM. THERE WERE MANY SECRET SOCIETYS IN THE PAST IN MOST COUNTRYS SOME STILL EXHIST AND MANY DO NOT. THE SKULL SYMBOL IS OFTEN A REMINDER OF MANS MORTALITY AS WE ALL PONDER DEATH FROM TIME TO TIME. MOST OF THE OTHER SYMBOLS PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED ALSO HAVE SEVERAL WAYS OF INTREPETING THEM.
MANY OF THE THINGS SAID TO BE ASSOCIATED WITH SATAN WORSHIP WERE RELATED TO THE OLD IDEAS OF NATURE WORSHIP WHICH IS NOT SATANISM OR WITCHCRAFT BUT A REVERENCE FOR NATURE AND THE FORCE OR FORCES THAT CREATED EVERYTHING. IN THE PROCESS OF ONE RELIGION DISPOSING OF A OLDER LOCAL RELIGION ALL SUCH BELIEFS AND THEIR SYMBOLS WERE SAID TO BE OF THE DEVIL AND FEARSOME EXAMPLES WERE MADE OF PEOPLE TO TRY AND STAMP OUT SUCH PRACTICES.
MANY SECRET SOCIETYS EVOLVED FROM THIS AND BEING SECRET I AM SURE THEY HAD SECRET SIGNS AND MEETINGS SO IF HISTORY NOTES THEM AT ALL IT WILL BE FROM THE VIEWS OF THOSE WHO FIND AND DESTROY THEM. IF THEY BELONGED TO SUCH A SOCIETY AND IT IS STILL IN EXHISTANCE I DOUBT THAT THE KNIFE WOULD HAVE BEEN SOLD UNLESS A THIEF TOOK IT.
PERHAPS THERE ARE THOSE WHO WORSHIP SATAN AND HOPE TO GAIN WEALTH AND POWER THRU IT BUT I WOULD THINK THEY WOULD BE FAR AND FEW IN BETWEEN THROUGHT HISTORY. MANY OF THE THINGS YOU READ ABOUT BLACK MASSES, HUMAN SACRIFICE, SUMMONING DEAMONS , VAMPIRES, DRAGONS AND ORGES ARE BASED ON OLD TALES, BOOKS, MOVIES AND SUCH. SOME CHOOSE TO BELIEVE IN THESE STORYS AND TRY TO BECOME A MASTER OF THE BLACK ARTS OR A WICKED WITCH AND MAY DO SOME TERRIBLE SECRET THINGS AND BECOME FEARED AS A DEAMON IN HUMAN FORM. THIS IS THEIR DOING BUT I FEEL THEY DON'T GET ANY REAL POWER FROM IT AND IT IS A FORM OF ROLE PLAYING GAME. THE DEVIL WILL OF COURSE TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THIS FOR HIS OWN ENDS BUT IS A FRIEND TO NO MAN.

FIGURES FROM GREEK, ROMAN, EGYPTIAN AND OTHER TIMES AND COUNTRYS HAVE BECOME THE FASHON IN ART THROUGHOUT HISTORY. PERHAPS THE INDIVIDUAL WHO BOUGHT OR ORDERED THE DAGGER MADE WOULD KNOW WHAT ALL THE SYMBOLS STOOD FOR, PERHAPS NOT. A SECRET SOCIETY WOULD KNOW WHAT THE SYMBOLS STOOD FOR AND THEY WOULD BE A PART OF THEIR CREDO.
I WOULD THINK THAT ONE WHO PRACTEDED THE BLACK ARTS WOULD HAVE SOME PROTECTIVE SPELLS AND DEADLY CURSES INCORPORATED INTO THE DESIGNS UNLESS CURSES AND SPELLS CAN ONLY BE SPOKEN.? BUT I DON'T SEE WHY THEY WOULD HAVE RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS OF THE CHURCH AND SUCH ON A IMPLEMENT THEY PLANNED TO USE TO DESICRATE THE CHURCH AND RELIGION.

SOME POSSIBILITYS FOR THE ORIGINAL DAGGER WOULD BE
1. ONE OR MORE EXAMPLES WERE MADE TO BE PRESENTED AS GIFTS TO SOME IMPORTANT PERSON. PERHAPS VICTOR HUGO HIMSELF? IF YOU COULD PROVE THAT IT WOULD BE WORTH MORE THAN A MERE SATANIC DAGGER

2. AN ARTIST LIKED THE BOOK AND WAS INSPIRED TO MAKE THE KNIFE OR SOMEONE ELSE COMMISIONED IT AS HE WAS A FAN OF VICTOR HUGO.

3. THE VICTOR HUGO FAN CLUB HAD THEM MADE IN THE THOUSANDS FOR ALL MEMBERS OR NOT

I HAVE NOT SEEN ANY OF THESE DAGGERS TAKEN APART BEFORE AND WONDER IF VERY MANY KNIVES WERE MADE WITH THE DETACHABLE BLADE AND IF IT MIGHT HAVE HAD MULTIPLE BLADES FOR DIFFERENT USES?

MY GUT FEELING ABOUT THIS TYPE OF KNIFE IS THAT IT WAS NOT MADE FOR USE BY THOSE WHO WORSHIP SATAN. BUT IN THE YEARS SINCE ITS CREATION WHO KNOWS WHO HAS HAD IT OR WHAT THEY HAVE USED IT FOR. AS THEY HAVE BEEN SOLD AS DAGGERS RELATED TO WITCHCRAFT, ECT. AT LEAST SINCE THE EARLY 1960'S.

SORRY I CAN'T LAY ALL THE INFORMATION OF THE TYPE AND THE HISTORY ON YOU . BUT REGARDLESS OF WHAT IT IS ITS A REAL SWEET DAGGER AND IT HAS BEEN A VERY INTERESTING DISCUSSION.

PS. THE SWASTKA IS ALSO AN ANCIANT SYMBOL USED BY SOME OF THE AMERICAN INDIAN TRIBES, A VERY OLD SYMBOL BUT NOTHING EVIL ABOUT IT.

Thankyou Vandoo for your thoughtfull & informitave input. Particularily regarding thier more recent history.

Spiral

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

Indeed theres is tons of information by Bernard Levine one of the worlds leading authoritys on these daggers as well as other American & European knives & daggers.
Sadley I am not allowed to share it though. {rules are rules.}

Spiral, i have followed the thread on Bernard Levine's forum discussion. At first he stated that he didn't think yours was one of what he calls "satanic daggers". He did finally come around to a "could be" after much discussion, but i saw nowhere where he difinitively stated he thought your knife was such a dagger. When someone tried to make a link to this forum's dicussion for a different perspective it was sqaushed. I am sorry that you are finding it difficult that people here don't agree with you.

"I did ask for actual evidence, sorry if that too academic a request, just to find someone on this forum with expierience of 19th century cast figural knives & or satanic gaggers doesnt strike me as particularily academic though."

Quite a bit of well researched factual evidence has been presented by various people in this thread. No, they do not have the distinction of being expert in the very specific field of 19th century figural cast & or satanic daggers, but that doesn't mean their answers hold no academic worth or that they can't be weighed against this case. Without actual provenence of the maker or original owner i am afraid we will never have a definitive answe as to theorigins of this knife. Even the one expert in this field whom you have named (but whose opinion you cannot speak) cannot and has not given you that definitive answer.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

Spiral, i have followed the thread on Bernard Levine's forum discussion. At first he stated that he didn't think yours was one of what he calls "satanic daggers". He did finally come around to a "could be" after much discussion, but i saw nowhere where he difinitively stated he thought your knife was such a dagger. When someone tried to make a link to this forum's dicussion for a different perspective it was sqaushed. I am sorry that you are finding it difficult that people here don't agree with you.

"I did ask for actual evidence, sorry if that too academic a request, just to find someone on this forum with expierience of 19th century cast figural knives & or satanic gaggers doesnt strike me as particularily academic though."

Quite a bit of well researched factual evidence has been presented by various people in this thread. No, they do not have the distinction of being expert in the very specific field of 19th century figural cast & or satanic daggers, but that doesn't mean their answers hold no academic worth or that they can't be weighed against this case. Without actual provenence of the maker or original owner i am afraid we will never have a definitive answe as to theorigins of this knife. Even the one expert in this field whom you have named (but whose opinion you cannot speak) cannot and has not given you that definitive answer.

My referance was to The BRL dagger, katana refered to.

Any quashing was by me, no one else.

I dont find it difficult that people dont agree with me, thats fine, I was just hoping to find more facts about cast figural handles daggers of the 19th century.

Spiral

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

My referance was to The BRL dagger, katana refered to.

Any quashing was by me, no one else.

I dont find it difficult that people dont agree with me, thats fine, I was just hoping to find more facts about cast figural handles daggers of the 19th century.

Spiral

I never implied that anyone other than yourself did the quashing.
The daggers you are researching are no doubt a very specialized field. I wouldn't image there are too many other "experts" other than Levine. He could not definitively ID your dagger as one of these so-called "satanic" daggers, so i don't know who you think will.
Meanwhile the evidence presented here, while not definitive, has at least been academic, relative and deeply interesting and has presented an alternative to your theory through reasoning and critical analysis that is an extremely viable, and IMO likely answer to the origins of you dagger. What it seems you are really hoping for is only information that will verify your claims.

[VANDOO]

I JUST THOUGHT OF A POSSIBLE DIRECTION OF RESEARCH YOU MIGHT TRY ,I SAW QUITE A FEW OF THE HIGHLY DECORATIVE CAST HANDLES IN THE LARGE ARMS MUSEUM NEAR THE EIFEL TOWER IN PARIS. PERHAPS YOU COULD CONTACT THEM AND TAKE SOME PICTURES TO SEND THEM FOR AN OPINION, IF THERE IS A SPECIALIST IN THIS SORT OF WORK THEY SHOULD KNOW WHO IT IS AND HOW TO CONTACT THEM. MANY OF THE EXAMPLES I SAW CONSISTED OF SETS OF SWORD AND DAGGER AND THE MAKERS WERE KNOWN SO A GOOD ONCE OVER WITH A GOOD MAGNIFIENG GLASS LOOKING FOR MARKS OR SIGNATURES MIGHT TURN SOMETHING UP. OFTEN MARKINGS ARE VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE ON HIGHLY DECORATED ARTISTIC WORKS.

THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY OF THIS TYPE OF DAGGER AT GUN SHOWS IN THE USA OVER THE YEARS I SUSPECT MANY CAME BACK AS WAR SOUVINEERS FROM THE 2 WORLD WARS. THE GERMANS WOULD CERTIANLY HAVE TAKEN THEM AND THE AMERICAN GI. WOULD THEN TAKE THEM FROM THE GERMANS. I WONDER IF MANY OF THESE HAVE TURNED UP IN RUSSIA AS WELL? SOME WOULD ALSO HAVE BEEN SOLD OR TRADED DURING THE HARD TIMES AFTER THE WARS AS WELL.

[spiral]

Originally Posted by David

I never implied that anyone other than yourself did the quashing.
The daggers you are researching are no doubt a very specialized field. I wouldn't image there are too many other "experts" other than Levine. He could not definitively ID your dagger as one of these so-called "satanic" daggers, so i don't know who you think will.
Meanwhile the evidence presented here, while not definitive, has at least been academic, relative and deeply interesting and has presented an alternative to your theory through reasoning and critical analysis that is an extremely viable, and IMO likely answer to the origins of you dagger. What it seems you are really hoping for is only information that will verify your claims.

Certnley , I just pointed it out about the quashing to save anyone misunderstanding.

Of course I would like my Opinion verified!

But I would be happy to have verification of exactly what it is even if it is a suggested by some either 19th century Franklin Mint or indeed A notre Damn tourist dagger!

The TRUTH is what matters!

But this piece seems to have generated such intrest that I am rather shocked, but this thread has at least prooved the rarity of such pieces.

Sure I continue to point that out in the face of some of the comments & oppinions I have read throughout this thread.

The general discusian itself has been intresting, as well, & thankyou for your input & rest assured if I ever find Kriss your one of the expierienced peoples opinions I would first seek.

Spiral

[spiral]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

I JUST THOUGHT OF A POSSIBLE DIRECTION OF RESEARCH YOU MIGHT TRY ,I SAW QUITE A FEW OF THE HIGHLY DECORATIVE CAST HANDLES IN THE LARGE ARMS MUSEUM NEAR THE EIFEL TOWER IN PARIS. PERHAPS YOU COULD CONTACT THEM AND TAKE SOME PICTURES TO SEND THEM FOR AN OPINION, IF THERE IS A SPECIALIST IN THIS SORT OF WORK THEY SHOULD KNOW WHO IT IS AND HOW TO CONTACT THEM. MANY OF THE EXAMPLES I SAW CONSISTED OF SETS OF SWORD AND DAGGER AND THE MAKERS WERE KNOWN SO A GOOD ONCE OVER WITH A GOOD MAGNIFIENG GLASS LOOKING FOR MARKS OR SIGNATURES MIGHT TURN SOMETHING UP. OFTEN MARKINGS ARE VERY DIFFICULT TO SEE ON HIGHLY DECORATED ARTISTIC WORKS.

THERE HAVE BEEN SO MANY OF THIS TYPE OF DAGGER AT GUN SHOWS IN THE USA OVER THE YEARS I SUSPECT MANY CAME BACK AS WAR SOUVINEERS FROM THE 2 WORLD WARS. THE GERMANS WOULD CERTIANLY HAVE TAKEN THEM AND THE AMERICAN GI. WOULD THEN TAKE THEM FROM THE GERMANS. I WONDER IF MANY OF THESE HAVE TURNED UP IN RUSSIA AS WELL? SOME WOULD ALSO HAVE BEEN SOLD OR TRADED DURING THE HARD TIMES AFTER THE WARS AS WELL.

Thankyou Vandoo that is a great suggestion. Someting solid at last!

By any chance do you have the name of the museam?


Spiral

[VANDOO]

THE MUSEUM IS CALLED ( LE INVALIDES) MUSEUM LE ARMY, IT IS JUST TO THE RIGHT OF THE EFIL TOWER AND NAPOLEANS TOMB IS IN THE BACK OF IT. IT IS A VERY GOOD MUSEUM AND WELL WORTH A VISIT IF YOU EVER VISIT PARIS. I HAD TO LOOK IT UP IN MY LIST OF MUSEUMS VISITED TO BE SURE THERE ARE 267 LISTED BOY AM I A MUSEUM GEEK
GOOD LUCK

[spiral]

Originally Posted by VANDOO

THE MUSEUM IS CALLED ( LE INVALIDES) MUSEUM LE ARMY, IT IS JUST TO THE RIGHT OF THE EFIL TOWER AND NAPOLEANS TOMB IS IN THE BACK OF IT. IT IS A VERY GOOD MUSEUM AND WELL WORTH A VISIT IF YOU EVER VISIT PARIS. I HAD TO LOOK IT UP IN MY LIST OF MUSEUMS VISITED TO BE SURE THERE ARE 267 LISTED BOY AM I A MUSEUM GEEK
GOOD LUCK

Once again thankyou again Vandoo! Your constructive help is most appreciated.

I will visit this year indeed. It also gives me the excuse to visit a friend that is overdue.

Cheers,

Spiral

[katana]

Hi Spiral,
I have now gained the 'close up' pictures of the Bernard Lavine 'satanic' dagger and am currently researching the symbolism. At first glance the 'extra' designs do look satanic but early 'searches' seem to cast doubt on this.

However, I found this hunting sword, which has a figural hilt and ornate scabbard from France and of a similar period to your dagger. The scabbard re-inforces the fact that yours should be viewed as if the church/cathedral is upside down....but I firmly believe...as I stated before...that this symbolism is not 'satanic' but from the underlying theme of Hugo's story.


Hunting sword, ca. 1851
French (Paris)
Silver, cast, chased, partly gilt; gilt copper; steel; L. (overall, sword in scabbard) 24 3/4 in. (63 cm)

hunting sword is a masterpiece of the Gothic Revival style and a virtuoso demonstration of mid-nineteenth-century design and craftsmanship, which were greatly stimulated by the series held of international exhibitions in London and Paris in the 1840s–60s.
The grip is fashioned as a deep architectural niche formed of pierced strapwork and foliage, partly gilt, into which is set a figure, cast and chased in the round, of Saint Hubert, patron of the hunt. The cross-shaped guard is inhabited by three dogs, modeled with naturalistic detail, in pursuit of a fox, which cowers at the front of the quillon block; on the end of one quillon an eagle seizes its prey, a crane.

From the mid-sixteenth century, the French were unrivaled in the field of highly decorated, deluxe arms. This sword demonstrates that this tradition had not diminished 300 years later.

[spiral]

Hi Katana,

Thanks for the further the photographic example, showing scabbard orientation.

Thats a very fancy piece!

Good luck with your research & developing suppositions.

Spiral

[katana]

Close-up photos of the Florian Satanic dagger reveal further symbolism not previously noticeable.

The pommel end of the hilt shows a bat with the ‘body’ in a heart shape.
The sacred heart (if winged) usually has ‘birds’ wings. Could suggest satanic meaning or that the heart of an individual/ Nation has been taken or ‘captured’ by an 'evil' / malignant force

The ‘winged hour glass’ signifies the ‘fleetness’ of time…mortality or time running/run out. Again the wings are very bat like, bats are seen as dwellers of the underworld, the abode of the dead.

On the cross guard is a face…which has been suggested ( B.L. Forum) as the ‘green man’... a pagan symbol. However I think the features are more Lion –esque, it could be a lioness or young male lion due to the lack of a full main. Alternatively, it could be, the lack of main may be symbolic that the lion has lost its prestige and power. The Lion symbolises strength, loyalty, courage, royalty; power; guardian or fallen hero

On the cross guard are coiled Ram’s horns

The ram has come to represent male fertility, aggression, and courage. A ram's horn is part of a cornucopia, the "horn of plenty", symbolizing abundance. In history, rams were often symbols of leadership. It is also associated with sacrifice both physical and spiritual.

In English, the word trumpet appears many in scripture and many times it is referring to the ram's horn as opposed to the Chatzotzrah, a long, straight trumpet made usually of silver or gold. At Mount Sinai when the Jewish people received the law of Moses, it was accompanied by several miraculous signs (Exodus 19:16) among which was the shrill sound of a shofar that emanated from the sacred mountain. Later on when Joshua led the siege of Jericho, it was the blasts of the shofars (Joshua 6:20) that triggered the collapse of those impregnable walls. Still later, in the time of Gideon, it was a band of only 300 men (Judges 7:15-23) which at God's command scattered the mighty Midianites by smashing pitchers and blowing the shofar. A shofar is a curved horn taken straight from a male sheep commemorating the sacrifice of Isaac when at the last moment God provided a ram that had its horn caught in the thicket. Horns of cows were rejected because these animals were associated with the worship of the Golden Calf by the Children of Israel in the desert, a sin vigorously condemned by Moses.

In classical mythology……
In China and India, rams were the steeds of the gods. There and in other countries, rams were associated with unicorns. The nations around Israel portrayed Baal and Rashap with ram's horns. Ea, the pagan god of Destiny and the Ocean was represented by a ram's head set on top of a column. In Egypt, rams were sacred to Amun, Khnum, Osiris, and the cult sites of Elephantine and Mendes. Each year, Amun, the ram-headed creator of the universe, was sacrificed in the form of a ram which was mourned and buried with great honour in a sacred tomb at Thebes. The Celtic fertility god, Cernunnos, had a ram-headed serpent as one of his attributes. The bleating of the ram and the spiral shape of its horns made it a universal symbol of thunder and thunder-gods such as Shango, Thor, and Benin.


Interestly there is also this …

The golden ratio is present in the horns of the Ram
It has also been known for a long time that the Golden Ratio (Golden Section, Golden Mean or Divine Proportion) enables to build a logarithmic spiral easily.

Some of the greatest mathematical minds of all ages, from Pythagoras and Euclid in ancient Greece, through the medieval Italian mathematician Leonardo of Pisa and the Renaissance astronomer Johannes Kepler, to present-day scientific figures such as Oxford physicist Roger Penrose, have spent endless hours over this simple ratio and its properties. But the fascination with the Golden Ratio is not confined just to mathematicians. Biologists, artists, musicians, historians, architects, psychologists, and even mystics have pondered and debated the basis of its ubiquity and appeal. In fact, it is probably fair to say that the Golden Ratio has inspired thinkers of all disciplines like no other number in the history of mathematics.
More info here. Or Google ‘Golden Ratio’
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio
The Freemasons also hold the ‘Golden Ratio’ in high esteem, also here is shown the ‘pentagram’ and its relation to the ‘GR’..
http://209.85.129.104/search?q=cache...k&ct=clnk&cd=3

The Crossed Swords. And Inverted Torch.

As can be seen the two swords are of differing styles…..symbolic of conflict, also posted an American emblem dispaying this configuration with the torch ‘right way’ up (The French were beaten) and therefore, in this case, it means victory.
As stated before…..the inverted torch usually means death….a life extinguished. However, if you compare the Tomb symbol with the torch on the scabbard you will notice the flames are rising upward, and as I mentioned before, feel that this symbolises that the life is still ‘smouldering’…not extinguished.

The demonic / Satan figure

It is mentioned on the B.L. forum that the face is a Fleur de Lys a French National symbol. The three petals of the heraldic design reflect a widespread association with the Holy Trinity, a tradition going back to 14th century France.
IMHO I’m not so sure. I am wondering whether it is ‘demonisation’ of the enemy (German stereotype or of an individual) I found an image of a statue of Helmuth von Moltke the Elder, Tiergarten, Berlin. He organised and directed the attack on France in the Franco-Prussian war. I cannot date the statue…..but notice the unusual pose……strange for a Military leader…..crossed arms and legs…(also an unusual pose for Satan) ..facially similar too. Or also quite likely a demonisation of Napoleon III , the ruler that had let his people down, notice the ‘long’ nose and very similar beard/moustache with the ‘Satan’ decoration.

To me there are no definitive interpretation of the symbolism that associates this with Satan or that of the turmoil of the Franco-Prussian conflict. The fact that it is dated and was made in Nancy, a city heavily affected by the conflict suggests to me that the Satanic angle is less likely…..but that is only my opinion.

Bernard Levine actually states that this ‘satanic’ dagger is the first and only one he has seen that is ‘signed’. He also states that these daggers seem to increase in number after major conflicts that the French have lost i.e. the Napoleonic wars, the Franco-Prussian war, WW1, WW2 etc. Could this be a traditional attitude… to produce a sort of ‘revenge’ dagger full of evil intent to her enemies ???

The last two images are a German Busby, Braunschweig’s Hussar Regiment Nr 17. Whose honors covered both the Napoleonic Wars and the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-1871. The sight of the 'skull and crossbones' would be fresh in the minds of the people of Nancy...

[spiral]

mmmmm I am speechless, {nearly.}

I thought you would realy look into this, dont know why but I thought you would.

Instead To me it looks more like a rather ugly self inflicted gunshot wound.

The danger of a few quick google searches strung together, With the preconcieved intent of showing its not satanist.

I thought you would just expouse your veiws on the daggers symbolism but instead you try & dismantle BRLs case here ,rather than to his face if thats what you realy wished to do, seems rather unsporting or in bad taste to me.

Having seen how BRL looks at knives etc. over many years of reading every post he does & having learnt a lot from amongst that. I think he presents a much more coherant case than yourself on this or any other piece I have ever seen him or you discuss..

Evry classic artist , Archictect & indeed even myself use various computations of the Golden mean in evrything we construct. I am glad you have discovered it, now you will see evrything you look at in a different light.

Good luck with the letter opener you recently bought, actualy I havent a clue what it is other than it appears probably homemade & I am sure any cutler would be ashamed of that blade. Actualy I would recomend you ask Bernard.

Spiral

[Jim McDougall]

More excellent research Katana!!! Nicely presented and referenced!
I have found the depth of your research outstanding in detailing the esoteric data on this very unusual topic and find your writing most interesting. I am very much enjoying your well stated observations and especially much of the literary and historical detection you have done.

Spiral,
It seems we both have similar goals in our writing here, to promote the study of edged weapons and encourage others to share thier often specialized knowledge and material concerning the weapons being discussed. Thereby we all gain by sharing our observations, ideas and as you have emphasized, supported evidence. I would note here that in my original note on the orientation in viewing decorated scabbards, I made it a point to clarify that my suggestion was indeed unsupported, despite the fact that there had been supporting documentation seen, though presently irretrievable. When Wolviex added that he too had seen similar material, in a subsequent post you made what was, in my opinion, a derisive comment suggesting that if we "ever remember it please post it here or PM me if in a few years time", as "neither of you can remember where you saw it". This to me sounds unnecessarily compromising as a comment to any serious weapons researcher.

Myself, and as been shown, many others here, are very serious in researching edged weapons. I think the many detailed and well thought out posts here should show that to be a profound fact, which you should find pleasing. Many of us who have been writing here for some time have learned that unfortunately there are many 'snipers' who lurk in our midst, and we make every effort to properly qualify our comments. Despite this, even in 'friendly' discussions, mistakes can be made, and none of us are infallible.

I was disappointed with your note that my "...statements and judgement in friendly discussions always sound like pronouncements of authority", which again I would presume to be meant rather derisively. Whenever I write on a topic here, before I write I spend considerable time researching and checking resources so that I can properly reference the material I present. This is simply to consolidate data available on the weapon being discussed, and is done in hopes that others with resources not included might join in by adding the material they have access to. Frankly, I always look forward to new or unknown material being presented! This way, not only me, but the members and readership all gain the benefit of comprehensive material as well as the observations and opinions of all participating.
This is a distinct advantage I think, to all, and I rather resent my work being termed any such 'pronouncements of authority'.

Having said that, once again I must emphasize that I am glad that you posted your knife and have promoted an extremely fascinating thread. You have noted that you yourself have considerable experience concerning these occult topics, including spending some 6 weeks in current research. Perhaps you might utilize the method noted of sharing some of your research results in order to build on existing material. I think this is considerably more effective than impatience or unkind and unnecessary comments, that I think have resulted from tension that seemingly often occurs in discussions on many very esoteric subjects.

I hope we can set aside these unfortunate misunderstandings, and simply return to 'friendly' (and I mean that sincerely ! discussion on edged weapons, which as noted, I think has provided us here with one the most comprehensive threads on these occult and unusual theme daggers that has been compiled in years.

All best regards,
Jim

[katana]

Originally Posted by spiral

mmmmm I am speechless, {nearly.}

I thought you would realy look into this, dont know why but I thought you would.

Instead To me it looks more like a rather ugly self inflicted gunshot wound.

The danger of a few quick google searches strung together, With the preconcieved intent of showing its not satanist.

I thought you would just expouse your veiws on the daggers symbolism but instead you try & dismantle BRLs case here ,rather than to his face if thats what you realy wished to do, seems rather unsporting or in bad taste to me.

Having seen how BRL looks at knives etc. over many years of reading every post he does & having learnt a lot from amongst that. I think he presents a much more coherant case than yourself on this or any other piece I have ever seen him or you discuss..

Evry classic artist , Archictect & indeed even myself use various computations of the Golden mean in evrything we construct. I am glad you have discovered it, now you will see evrything you look at in a different light.

Good luck with the letter opener you recently bought, actualy I havent a clue what it is other than it appears probably homemade & I am sure any cutler would be ashamed of that blade. Actualy I would recomend you ask Bernard.
Spiral

Hi Spiral,
very disappointed that you did not read my post carefully....surely if anyone states that a FACT is a FACT ... if it should be attacked by differing views the FACTS should 'stand up' ???? I posted MY opinion.....in fact IT is easier to say that this is a Satanic Dagger.....any layman seeing the 'devil' and a few bats will look at this and say 'it must be something to do with the devil'.......Why? because in the 20th century...with Hammer Horror, Dennis Wheatly etc. we are all experts in the iconography of 'Devil worship', every school kid at Halloween knows about bats, devils, inverted crosses, black alter candles, etc. .....are they experts ....no......nor am I....but, the symbolism of the 19c is slightly different....a fact, you perhaps have missed. Like the Swastika, pre WW2 it didn't have the symbolism it has now. Our ancestors had a greater affinity to death itself, life expectancy was less, famine, plague, war and conflict more prevalent. They were more in touch with the notion of death and was more readily discussed than in todays Industrial societies. I never stated that Bernard was wrong, I am saying that this is open to interpretation and I am not totally convinced. If more information became available that further proved that this is indeed a 'satanistic' dagger, then I am 'OPEN' to the facts. You on the otherhand have already decided that this dagger, and your own... is Satanic.I am sorry that your themed dagger is not what you expected, its still a nice piece with some historical kudos. But to attack me with my 'letter opener' seems alittle sad, it is not applicable to this thread and has little to do with my opinion on this dagger. You previously stated that you wanted the truth.......if I am so wrong (which I concede I might be) why act so aggresively....surely my opinion is not so 'dangerous' to cause you upset.
Basically, I wanted to see if the symbology of the dagger could be interpreted in a 'different' light..... and I feel that it could be.....whats so wrong with that.....I have used factual interpretations....not fantasy...to support this view. It seems that you have a 'closed' mind on this subject....which would be a shame....knowledge is not 'blind', if a fact is not supported then is it still a FACT????

Oh, by the way I haven't 'just' discovered the Golden Ratio (mean) and nature has been using it a damn sight longer than you or I, or artists or architects..... The point was that the Rams horn could be a reference to a creator or divine plan.....its a possibility.

[Andrew]

Let's move on, please, gentlemen.

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

Good luck with the letter opener you recently bought, actualy I havent a clue what it is other than it appears probably homemade & I am sure any cutler would be ashamed of that blade. Actualy I would recomend you ask Bernard. Spiral

Spiteful and ridiculously uncalled for Spiral! Try to focus and stay on topic. And if all you got out of Katana's recent post was his acknowledgement of the golden ratio you did some pretty sketchy skimming on his words. As for Bernard Levine"s case, any theory presented in the public spaces of the internet is open to examination and debate. His postion on the Florian dagger being a "satanic" dagger has been presented here by you on this forum. I see nothing unsporting or in bad taste about debating that opinion here. Mr. Levine is welcome to appear here if he wishes to defend or support his opinions himself. There is nothing in Katana's critique that shows any malice towards Mr. Levine. And untimately this is ALL opinion, even Mr. Levine's theories.
Nicely researched material Katana. But even more important than the references you uncovered is the simple understanding (so simple we so often miss it) that the signs and symbols that we identify with one thing today may have once had very different purpose and meaning 100 or more years ago. Real life is not a Hammer horror film starring Christopher Lee. Sometimes it's much worse.

[spiral]

Come on chaps.

Cheer up, no need to take oneselfs so seriously.

A lot of defensivess some of which was based within your owns needs & internal veiws of the world perhaps?

It only an old dagger after all, even if the quantity of posts generated in such a short time do show it tpo be rather rather powerfull as well as rare & possiblyunique one.

& lets face it we have flogged this horse to death, resurected it , nailed it upside down & you still wish to thrash it again.

You percieve my comments in the way you do, I do the same with yours.

I have never read so much pompus bluster before that is clearly just to do with faith & belief.

sorry I am used to more in depth research reports & concepts from proffesionals & indeed my younger students. I apologise that my expectations were to high.

But thankyou to evryone who has helped in whatever way, particularily those who provided sources for further research or photographs of further examples of the correct way to veiw these 19th century figural pieces in relation to scabbard orientation.

If any one ever finds anything concrete as a source about these figurals please email, even if its in 5 years time. I will always be intrested.

It would have been intresting to have had a piece where each person put there childhood religious belief system next to there repleys.{whether they accepted it or later rebeled.}

If I ever find out anything more concrete I will repost it, my research has only just begun.

Glad you all injoyed the band wagon! That so many clearly felt the need to join. Always intresting studying that effect.

Many thanks for the emails & offers.

But it is a keeper.

Spiral

[Andrew]

This is my final request: stop the bickering and move on, please.

[David]

Originally Posted by spiral

If I ever find out anything more concrete I will repost it, my research has only just begun.

I would be interested if you could point out one single piece of
concrete evidence that you presented in this discussion that supports your case for your dagger. You seem to expect more from us then you do from yourself.
I believe it would also be helpful for this conversation if you could accurately define what you actually mean when you use the word "satanic".