Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

javanese words usually have malay or sanskrit/tamil/hindi etymology. I can't find the etymology of gonjo.

I don't even know if gonjo and katik are the same. if gonjo is a continuous part of the blade then it's not the same as katik.

The gonjo is generally a separate piece situated between the blade and hilt. A relatively few number of keris are "gonjo iras" where the gonjo and blade are one piece, often with a line marking where a separation would be. Most Moro (for lack a a better descriptor) kris made after 1930 also are all one piece continuous from the blade and there is just an inscribed line to mark where the separation should be. Please don't tell me this is not the case.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Alam Shah

Dear Baganing,
What's the title of the book that you'll be publishing?
Interesting ideas you have... (I've read all 5 pages). Good luck in you quest.
Regarding the DNA testing, how many people had been tested? From which ethnic group? Would you like to share more details, please?

Su: The Edge of Water

For the DNA, I am lucky that i don't have to do it. A university back home is doing their human genome project on all ethnic groups. I'll just wait for their data. Turkey has already profiled the genetic make up of the turkish people.

I am primarily interested of the Tausugs because they were the first to be Islamized by the Arab missionaries in late 1300's.

[A. G. Maisey]

Ah---Prambanan.

Yes, on the inside of the balcony wall of Candi Shiva there are a number of representations of keris-like weapons.

In Panel #4 there is depictation of Rama and Laksmana killing giants. The representation of a a keris-like weapon in this panel is in many respects similar to what we now know as a "Keris Buda", the carving of this dagger shows an asymetric base, a definite gonjo, and other features that we expect to find in a keris. It is a fore-runner of the modern keris.

Now, there are representations of other keris-like weapons at the Prambanan complex also. Some are very keris-like, others are less so, only the one I have mentioned is a clear representation of a form that can be positively identified as a fore-runner of the keris.If this one dagger were to be presented stripped of handle, it would be identified in modern times as a "Keris Buda".

If we consider the salient features found in a Keris Buda blade, all of those features can be found in the modern keris.

Ms Baganing, I have actually spent a very great amount of time at the Prambanan complex, mostly in study of these particular carvings. You appear to be speaking of some representation of a keris-like dagger that is other than the Rama & Laksmana one.

Please Ms Baganing, can you provide a reference to an image so that I may know exactly which representation you are using as your point of reference?

[baganing_balyan]

double post

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Ah---Prambanan.

Yes, on the inside of the balcony wall of Candi Shiva there are a number of representations of keris-like weapons.

In Panel #4 there is depictation of Rama and Laksmana killing giants. The representation of a a keris-like weapon in this panel is in many respects similar to what we now know as a "Keris Buda", the carving of this dagger shows an asymetric base, a definite gonjo, and other features that we expect to find in a keris. It is a fore-runner of the modern keris.

Now, there are representations of other keris-like weapons at the Prambanan complex also. Some are very keris-like, others are less so, only the one I have mentioned is a clear representation of a form that can be positively identified as a fore-runner of the keris.If this one dagger were to be presented stripped of handle, it would be identified in modern times as a "Keris Buda".

If we consider the salient features found in a Keris Buda blade, all of those features can be found in the modern keris.

Ms Baganing, I have actually spent a very great amount of time at the Prambanan complex, mostly in study of these particular carvings. You appear to be speaking of some representation of a keris-like dagger that is other than the Rama & Laksmana one.

Please Ms Baganing, can you provide a reference to an image so that I may know exactly which representation you are using as your point of reference?

I have a limited knowledge about malaysian and Indonesian keris.

I don't know if my memory serves me right. One relief is a row of monkeys-- one is holding a kris-like sword and the other, a tulwar.

the second image is a kris-like sword held by a bird-man maybe garuda

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

The gonjo is generally a separate piece situated between the blade and hilt. A relatively few number of keris are "gonjo iras" where the gonjo and blade are one piece, often with a line marking where a separation would be. Most Moro (for lack a a better descriptor) kris made after 1930 also are all one piece continuous from the blade and there is just an inscribed line to mark where the separation should be. Please don't tell me this is not the case.

There are still swordsmiths in tugaya, lanao del sur who make katik as a separate part from the blade.

Nowadays, the krises made anywhere in Mindanao follow the tausug design with sarimaok handle head and the knives mostly use the metal works of the maranaos.

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

There are still swordsmiths in tugaya, lanao del sur who make katik as a separate part from the blade.

Nowadays, the krises made anywhere in Mindanao follow the tausug design with sarimaok handle head and the knives mostly use the metal works of the maranaos.

wow! still going strong, but it seems like it's going in a different direction, lol.
just wanna mention that i haven't seen a sarimanok style puhan come out of jolo in a very long time.

[A. G. Maisey]

Sorry Ms Baganing, you'll have to do better than reference to your memory. I need the image to which you refer. I cannot identify the relevant relief from your vague recollection.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

There are still swordsmiths in tugaya, lanao del sur who make katik as a separate part from the blade.

I am aware of this. That is why i wrote "most" in my post.
I will also go out on a limb here and state that most of these new kris are merely a shadow to the quality of old Moro swordsmithing.

[Andrew]

Let's keep this thread civil, please. Baganing, in particular, some of your posts have been obnoxious. If you want to continue posting here, I suggest you lighten up a bit.

I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.

[Andrew]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

wow! still going strong, but it seems like it's going in a different direction, lol.
just wanna mention that i haven't seen a sarimanok style puhan come out of jolo in a very long time.

How've you been Ron? Have you got wet this summer? The swell off Hutchinson has been small, but consistent all month.

[Lew]

OK

Below are what I consider Moro battle kris/sudang or whatever else you want to call them. They all have large and heavy pattern welded blades. The kris/gunong that baganing_balyan refers in the photo of the man in yellow I would consider a newer piece made only for dress. I would not put it in the same category with the older pieces. That type of stylized dagger in the photo seems to have surfaced during the 1950s-70s and to date I have not seen any old photos pre WW2 with any Moro warrior wearing this type of dagger.

Lew

[RhysMichael]

baganing_balyan on your web page you say

The clean sculptural head and handle of the yatagan was the earliest handle design of the Islamic kris of the Mindanaoan Muslims. The Indo-Buddhist handle was replaced by the Turkish one. In archeology, when it comes to tools, the evolution happened from simple to complex. Compare the yatagan's handle to the kris' of Mindanao

Then you include this photo to document it


You are aware I am sure that this looks to be a modern interpretation of a yatagan, made by a contemporary smith ( Jody Samson made similar ones I think, in fact this one may well be one of his pieces. Jody Samson made movie weapons and artistic pieced but to my knowledge does not make historical reproductions, he did make one much like this that does have ears ).
Traditional yatagan I have seen have handles like the one in the photos below ( some with smaller or larger "ears" and different angles for the "ears") With this in mind I would like to know about your feelings on the similarities to the kris photo you have on your site. The traditional yatagan I have seen also have downward curving blades. Not straight or wavy blades as seen on kris. You may also want to research the dates when yatagan first came into use. I have seem some sources put that as late as the 16th century. I cannot vouch for that but there are some on here who have a great deal of knowledge on Turkish weapons and may be able to give you better information.

[baganing_balyan]

sorry double posts.

[baganing_balyan]

when I used the images in my previous posts, I did not mind about the dates. I only used them as representations since I had no idea about the exact dates the artifacts were made. So when I use the images of Indian swords and yataghan, my concern is mainly to show what they look like.

so far the oldest illustration of yataghan i read is the one in Richard Burton's The Book of the Sword, 1884, where the bird or sarimanok motif is evident.



Dating krises is really problematic. Without the use of carbon-dating, we can only get estimates, and sound estimation can only be done if the survey of krises is counducted according to groups. Sulu krises should be treated as one group and lanao's as another one, and so on and so forth.

Another proof of Turkish and Tausug's meeting of cultures:

There is a dance in sabah popular among tausugs (or suluk) called daling-daling-- it is a combination of arabic belly-dancing and indian classical dance. Not only did sarimanok motif come from turkey, daling-daling too was influenced by the turkish belly-dancing called chiftetelli.

I just compared the musical beats and dance movements in both dance forms, the similarities are pretty obvious.

I have always believed that to really understand the origin of a weapon, a general or holistic study should be done-- art, folklore, genealogy, genetics, geography, metallurgy, woodwork, warfare, spirituality, etc. That's what I want to attempt.

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

when I used the images in my previous posts, I did not mind about the dates. I only used them as representations since I had no idea about the exact dates the artifacts were made. So when I use the images of Indian swords and yataghan, my concern is mainly to show what they look like.

so far the oldest illustration of yataghan i read is the one in Richard Burton's The Book of the Sword, 1884, where the bird or sarimanok motif is evident.

I am not questioning that there have been Trukish Travelers to that area. I would take that as a given. I would question if by the date suggested on your for the meeting would be a time when the yatagan was in use by the ottomans

The Ottomans reached India in late 1300's. It is possible that they reached Mindanao too, particularly sulu.

I would also expect that the profile shot of the yatagan from Burton ( fig 122) would show "ears" if drawn from a different angle. Fig 123 does indeed show the "ears".

Has there ever been evidence of "ears" on Kris. If not based on the profile alone of the hilt I could easily find several other swords with the same similar profile.

[RhysMichael]

While it was 50 years later, all of the yatagan Stones Glossary show "ears". Lord Edgerton of Tatton ( 1880 ) Only shows a Kyber knife and references it as a "Salawar Yatagan" and the profile of that hilt would bear a very similar profile to the one in Bruttons book though they are very different swords. Pictures of Turkish Yatagan in "Islamic Arms" from the Victoria and Albert museum show "ears". As do the photos of Yatagan in "Ancient Weapons from the collection of the state history museum Moscow ". I am in no way claiming all yatagan have ears. I am sure we can find examples without but I am saying I believe the lateral protrusions were the norm.

[TVV]

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h2/h2_1993.14.jpg

Above is a link to Sulayman the Magnificent's yataghan in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, dating from the early 1500s, which to my knowledge is the earliest known yataghan, apart from some examples in Croatian Museums with very questionable dating. Even those allegedly date back to the mid 15th century, from what I remember.

In the late 1300s, to my knowledge, the Ottomans had still not completed their conquest of the Balkans, and did not have any naval access to the Indian Ocean. Only once they defeated the Mameluks and gained access to the Red Sea, they established a naval presence outside of the Mediterranean. I believe their naval expedition to India sailed in 1538.

I would love it if there was a connection between Ottoman yataghans and kris from the Philippines. Unfortunately, I personally would need better evidence than the picture of a modern made fantasy sword, which might have been inspired by yataghans in its design (not convinced about this), but has none of the features of a traditional yataghan, especially when it comes to the hilt.

However, people in Bulgaria, who do not know much about swords, would call any exotic sword a yataghan, particularly any curved sword, such as a kilidj or shamshir. Some of them, if shown a kris, might call it yataghan as well. I guess, yet another piece of evidence supporting Ms. Baganing hypothesis, even if the sword examples themselves fail to do so.

Best regards,
Teodor

[RhysMichael]

Originally Posted by TVV

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/images/h2/h2_1993.14.jpg

Above is a link to Sulayman the Magnificent's yataghan in the Metropolitan Museum of Art, dating from the early 1500s, which to my knowledge is the earliest known yataghan, apart from some examples in Croatian Museums with very questionable dating. Even those allegedly date back to the mid 15th century, from what I remember.

In the late 1300s, to my knowledge, the Ottomans had still not completed their conquest of the Balkans, and did not have any naval access to the Indian Ocean. Only once they defeated the Mameluks and gained access to the Red Sea, they established a naval presence outside of the Mediterranean. I believe their naval expedition to India sailed in 1538.

I would love it if there was a connection between Ottoman yataghans and kris from the Philippines. Unfortunately, I personally would need better evidence than the picture of a modern made fantasy sword, which might have been inspired by yataghans in its design (not convinced about this), but has none of the features of a traditional yataghan, especially when it comes to the hilt.

However, people in Bulgaria, who do not know much about swords, would call any exotic sword a yataghan, particularly any curved sword, such as a kilidj or shamshir. Some of them, if shown a kris, might call it yataghan as well. I guess, yet another piece of evidence supporting Ms. Baganing hypothesis, even if the sword examples themselves fail to do so.

Best regards,
Teodor

I had never seen a yatagan that old. thanks Teodor and for the history of the ottomans and their access to the sea. As I have said I am a collector not a scholar or expert, but I love learning more about these things even when what I learn proves I was wrong before.

[TVV]

Originally Posted by RhysMichael

I had never seen a yatagan that old. thanks Teodor and for the history of the ottomans and their access to the sea. As I have said I am a collector not a scholar or expert, but I love learning more about these things even when what I learn proves I was wrong before.

Same here - always learning.

I believe Ariel was the one who discovered the reference to the 15th century yataghan in a book called Croatian Arms. No such yataghan is mentioned in the recently published book "Zbirka Yatagana" by Dora Boskovic (who I believe has an account here but rarely visits), which is a catalogue of yataghans from the Croatian History Museum in Zagreb. Therefore, for me at least, the 15th century yataghan is more of a legend and probably the result of wrong dating.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

when I used the images in my previous posts, I did not mind about the dates. I only used them as representations since I had no idea about the exact dates the artifacts were made. So when I use the images of Indian swords and yataghan, my concern is mainly to show what they look like.

so far the oldest illustration of yataghan i read is the one in Richard Burton's The Book of the Sword, 1884, where the bird or sarimanok motif is evident.

This illustration that Baganing has linked to reminds me of the old story of the blind men and the elephant. How each one, capable of limited senses, describes what the elephant is by very limited contact with very specific parts of the beast. No single blind man is able to get a full grasp of the animal they are examining. This 2-dimensional drawing from Burton's book does not really give us a completely accurate idea of the overall shape of the yagatan hilt. From this angle we see some similarity to the Moro kakatau pommel, but seen in 3-dimensions the similarities diminish greatly. I seriously doubt that the yagatan hilt did or could have influenced the development of the kakatau pommel. And seen from multiple sides i don't get the impression that the yagatan hilt was ever meant to be the stylized bird head that the kakatau pommels seem to be (though like the keris tajong hilt, maybe it's not meant to be a bird at all ).
Baganing, your project is both interesting and ambitious. However, you cannot just pick and choose the evidence that supports your theories and throw the rest away. No one is going to take that kind of research seriously. I know that personally i am always open to new discoveries and more than willing to see old paradigms toppled in the face of overwhelming new evidence. But what you present is just too easy to pick away at. It has no substance. Maybe you need to do just a little more field research yourself. It doesn't seem that you have even handled any old yagatans before developing this theory. You also admit to knowing very little about Malay keris. But this is obviously the origin of the Moro kris/kalis/sundang so maybe it would serve your research well if you spent a few years examining the history and roots of the keris before rushing to conclusions on the origins of the kris/kalis. The study of Malay keris is truly a lifetime's undertaking, but a little study might give you firmer ground on which to set your theories.
"I have always believed that to really understand the origin of a weapon, a general or holistic study should be done-- art, folklore, genealogy, genetics, geography, metallurgy, woodwork, warfare, spirituality, etc. That's what I want to attempt."
This is the the wisest thing you have posted so far. I don't think anyone here would argue with this. I would encourage you to continue in this quest. Unfortunately you will never accomplish this if you continue to disregard ideas and evidence when it fails to support your own theories.... or to disregard or disrespect other researcher and their questions to you when they disagree with what you want the truth to be.

[David]

Originally Posted by LOUIEBLADES

OK

Below are what I consider Moro battle kris/sudang or whatever else you want to call them. They all have large and heavy pattern welded blades. The kris/gunong that baganing_balyan refers in the photo of the man in yellow I would consider a newer piece made only for dress. I would not put it in the same category with the older pieces. That type of stylized dagger in the photo seems to have surfaced during the 1950s-70s and to date I have not seen any old photos pre WW2 with any Moro warrior wearing this type of dagger.

Lew

Hey Lew, nice kris, especially that twisted core one at the end. Let me know if that puppy is ever looking for a new home, will ya?
What you say here is undoubtable true and it was the point i was trying to make much early when i brought up the fact that you can find this type of thing often on eBay. I never meant to imply, as Baganing took it, that eBay was a good place to research blades, just saying that these are much more likely to be sold to "those who travel for pleasure". But these relatively new style of long punal have nothing to do with the great history of the various Moro tribes and their weapons. As you state, you would never seen a Moro Datu or warrior with anything like this in early photographs. This style just did not exist before WWII. If it is called a kris by the present culture it is only because they have forgotten the quality and power that the kris once represented. I am talking about the weapon (and the warrior) that forced the U.S. Army to develop .45 caliber Colt. I have a sneaky suspicion that these stylized punals wouldn't be too effective in battle.

[Lew]

[QUOTE=David]Hey Lew, nice kris, especially that twisted core one at the end. Let me know if that puppy is ever looking for a new home, will ya?


David

I wish that twisted core puppy were mine. I am basically down to one Moro kris and one barong now I am concentrating on other areas besides kris/keris at present. I would get a bit bored with collecting only one type weapon have to keep it fresh. Jack of all trades master of none that's me.

Lew

[baganing_balyan]

The Philippine history says that the Islamization of Mindanao happened in late 1300's. I am really doubtful of that date. 14th century Moroccan traveler Ibn Batuta, a Islamic scholar, reported that he was attack by the Hindus along the coasts on his way to China from India. He indicated that he reached Sumatra. It is obvious that those Hindus who attacked him were from Java, Borneo, Sulawesi, and Mindanao. Those four places were within his route to China but he never stopped and visited those places.

I am not denying that there were already Arab traders and Missionaries in Majapahit empire, but their numbers were negligible. The sunni Islam of Sultanate of Demak that toppled the Majapahit empire in mid 16th century was actually from Southern India-- Kerala and Tamil Nadu-- established by the seljuk turks of the Ottoman empire who reached India in 14th century. There are Turkish Anatolian and Turkish Safavid inscriptions found in Tanjore (Tamil Nadu) and Thiruvarur (Kerala). (J. P. Mulliner. Rise of Islam in India. University of Leeds)

I believe the Sultanate of Demak, which was in the north coast of Java, was actually a Turkish state. Even the word "demak" came from "demek," the turkish word for "force." I think the use of 'Kilis" (from the Turkish kilich for sword) and later, "keris" started in north Java in the sixteenth century. This timeline fits within the date the word creese or kris entered the English vocabulary.

Nicholas Turling wrote about the Turks in Java and Aceh in his book, The Cambridge History of Southeast Asia. Yataghan as a 16th century Turkish weapon also fits within the time line-- middle of 1500's.

Another proof of the Turkish influence reaching as far as Mindanao is the word "arak" or "alak"--meaning, wine or liquor. It is not of sanskrit or tamil origin. araq is arabic for Juice and arak is turkish for wine or liquor. Using such etymologies, it is safe to say that the influence of the turks was more direct than the arabs.

So as I see it, yatagan indeed reached the malay archipelago in the middle of 16th century during the time of suleiman the magnificent of the ottoman empire that spearheaded the spread of Islam to the balkans, mediterranean, europe, and asia.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I believe the Sultanate of Demak, which was in the north coast of Java, was actually a Turkish state. Even the word "demak" came from "demek," the turkish word for "force." I think the use of 'Kilis" (from the Turkish kilich for sword) and later, "keris" started in north Java in the sixteenth century. This timeline fits within the date the word creese or kris entered the English vocabulary.

This is exactly what i am talking about when i point out your incredible ability to ignore facts that fly in the face of your theories. Back in post #24 (i suggest you go back and carefully re-read all of that post) Mr. Maisey presented the following:

"In the Nawanatya there is frequent reference to the keris, and the words used to refer to it are "twek" and "curiga". Taking all the 14th century literary references, we find three words are used most frequently to refer to the keris:- curiga, which is purely a literary usage, and is used in reference to the keris when associated with royalty; twek, which seems to be the usage when applied to a military context, and kris (or keris) which is the most common usage and is applied to the keris when associated with the common man, or when the keris is used in a hunt."

Clearly here is cited literary evidence that the word keris was in common usage in Jawa in the 14th century. Did you miss this or just choose to ignore it? It is a word which came about to describe a weapon of Jawa origin when Jawa was Hindu. The word keris may very well be older than this. The keris certainly is. Mr. Maisey also provided you with a very reasonable etymology for the word from roots in the Javanese language. Why on Earth would a Hindu Javanese culture use a Islamic influenced Turkish word to derive a name for a dagger that had so much cultural significance in Hindu Jawa?
But hey, go on, keep trying to slam that square peg of yours into that round hole.

[TVV]

Ms. Baganing, why are you so intent on proving a connection between the Philippines and the Ottoman Empire in particular?

There were plenty of other Turks that reached India prior to the Ottomans, such as the Ghazni Empire for example. And while the Ottomans only led an unsuccessful expedition to India in the 16th century, the Mughals, also a Turkic dynasty, managed to actually conquer most of the subcontinent at around the same time. I completely agree with you that there was Turkic influence on Indian arms and armor, I just cannot understand why you are attributing it to the Ottomans, when historically their military, trading and cultural presence was negligible, compared to the presence of other powers.

Also, you seem to completely neglect the Arab presence in South-Asia. I am not that familiar with the history of the region, so I could possibly be wrong, but I believe that Islam reached Aceh in Sumatra as early as the 7th century AD, when all Turks were still Tengrist. And Arabs had contacts with India even prior to Islam. Given all the Arab colonies and trading dating back centuries, I fail to see how the Arab presence in the region was "negligible" compared to the Ottoman presence, which never really materialized apart from a failed attack on a Portuguese fort in India.

So again, why do you like the Ottomans for your hypothesis so much?

[Nonoy Tan]

Baganing Balyan, I wish that you will be able to conduct more research and then share with us linguistic evidence supported by historical, archaeological (I hope you did not forget this one) and DNA findings.

[baganing_balyan]

can you show me a 14th century text where "keris" is used? I have been looking for that text for years now.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by TVV

Ms. Baganing, why are you so intent on proving a connection between the Philippines and the Ottoman Empire in particular?

There were plenty of other Turks that reached India prior to the Ottomans, such as the Ghazni Empire for example. And while the Ottomans only led an unsuccessful expedition to India in the 16th century, the Mughals, also a Turkic dynasty, managed to actually conquer most of the subcontinent at around the same time. I completely agree with you that there was Turkic influence on Indian arms and armor, I just cannot understand why you are attributing it to the Ottomans, when historically their military, trading and cultural presence was negligible, compared to the presence of other powers.

Also, you seem to completely neglect the Arab presence in South-Asia. I am not that familiar with the history of the region, so I could possibly be wrong, but I believe that Islam reached Aceh in Sumatra as early as the 7th century AD, when all Turks were still Tengrist. And Arabs had contacts with India even prior to Islam. Given all the Arab colonies and trading dating back centuries, I fail to see how the Arab presence in the region was "negligible" compared to the Ottoman presence, which never really materialized apart from a failed attack on a Portuguese fort in India.

So again, why do you like the Ottomans for your hypothesis so much?

... because it would disprove many historical conventions.

Using a genetic map, haplogroup J (for arabs) was not present in the Philippines, Sumatra, and Borneo before 1500.

[A. G. Maisey]

Ms. Baganing, I suggest you read my post, #24.

Herewith a quote from that post:-

The principal literary works in which we find these words are the Nagarakertagama (approx. 1360), the Nawatnatya(14th century), the Pararaton (approx. 16th century), then there are minor references in the Rajapatigundala, and the Sarwardharma.

In the Nawanatya there is frequent reference to the keris, and the words used to refer to it are "twek" and "curiga". Taking all the 14th century literary references, we find three words are used most frequently to refer to the keris:- curiga, which is purely a literary usage, and is used in reference to the keris when associated with royalty; twek, which seems to be the usage when applied to a military context, and kris (or keris) which is the most common usage and is applied to the keris when associated with the common man, or when the keris is used in a hunt.

In Pigeaud, Java in the Fourteenth Century, you will find the original texts, romanised, and a translation into English.