Kalis: Origin of Minadanaon Kris

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

wha-? wait a minute..




kris matidto
kris espada
kalis tulid
kris luma
kris ranti
kalis taluseko
kris lanti
kris seko
kalis seko

and that's just from cato's book...

really gotta go now..

Have you checked if those kris/kalis terms traditionaly exist in Mindanao?

Kris luma? Do you know what luma means? kris espada? Is that traditionally mindanaoan?

Kris tulid? is it tul-id?

mmmmmmmm can you check if those names of kalises and krises again existed or still exist in mindanao?

They sound recent concoction to me.

[David]

I'm not sure if it matters to you, but Spunjer is, like yourself, also a Filipino living in the USA.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Spunjer

you still haven't answered my question, which is, how definitive are you that these alleged pictures you saw from smithsonian were old?



was it carbon-dated? Any dates etched or carved? If there are, are they Islamic or christian dating? does it show the date they were collected, put in the museum, sold, found or what?


regarding ivory, yesterday you said:


and then you came with this revelation:


and this:

i thought you said philippines has no source of ivory???


so which is it? or are you making this up as you go along?




pictures?

well, got to go...

mmmmmm I thought when I mentioned sulu elephants, you would research or know about it. They were from java transported to Sulu. The account is still vague, and I am still collecting data.

regarding the dating of kalises:

I am interested to make a survey of weaponry from written and oral sources taking into account the community that made and used them.

I am interested to study the krises of tausugs separate from the maguindanaoans, maranaos, and samals.

If we study them like that, we can truly find out how the krises developed, differed, and looked among the muslim communities in Mindanao.

mixing all krises to make a one linear comparison does not make sense.

In studying and dating krises, we have to consider the artistry of maranaos, the metal works of the maguindanaos, the pearl and ornaments of samals, and the turkish influences among the tausugs.

Can you tell me if Cato did that? Did he present an ethnography of each muslim group so he can understand for instance the resources available in each community, the geography, the kind of art the people do, and the symbolisms they use.

in dance for instance, Pangalay of sulu is different compared to the pangalays of maguindanao, maranao, and samal. That's just for the dance, how much more for complex issues?

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

I'm not sure if it matters to you, but Spunjer is, like yourself, also a Filipino living in the USA.

Is he from Mindanao? he should check those words.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Is he from Mindanao? he should check those words.

Well, i think you would have to ask him that yourself.
As for Cato, you should also do that for yourself as well. To date it is probably the best, if not only, book don't specifically on the subject. I am sure it is not perfect, but you would still find much to learn in it.

[Bill]

imo, rule #1 in dating a Kris is, you will always find exceptions.
#2 older Kris are less then 20 inches & have tapered blade tips for stabbing where the older ones evolve to a slashing weapon. In general the older fall into that 16-19" range.
Spunger posted some nice examples. The one from VVV is the oldest, interesting the quality control of craftsmanship on these. The Seko Kris either is an exception to rule #2 or in-fact may enforce it; evolving from stabbing to slashing.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Kris luma? Do you know what luma means?

Since you ask, AFAIK "luma" is a term from Maguindanao that refers to a kris which is half wavy and half straight.
Here is an example that i now own (previously owned by Battara and Spunjer) on a website put up by another of you fellow countrymen. If you navigate around this site i think you might also find quite a bit of useful information.
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...aocollage.html

[baganing_balyan]

mmmmm cato is one of his references.

Like that maguinadanaon kris should be dated in relation to the same krises known for their simple handles like that-- almost the same angular, clean design like t'boli swords sans bells. One does not have to wonder, geographically, tboli's and maguindanaos are neighbors.

[Battara]

David, I did not know that you have that now. I loved that piece.....

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by Bill

imo, rule #1 in dating a Kris is, you will always find exceptions.
#2 older Kris are less then 20 inches & have tapered blade tips for stabbing where the older ones evolve to a slashing weapon. In general the older fall into that 16-19" range.
Spunger posted some nice examples. The one from VVV is the oldest, interesting the quality control of craftsmanship on these. The Seko Kris either is an exception to rule #2 or in-fact may enforce it; evolving from stabbing to slashing.

Not necessarily. Krises used as regalia specially by maranaos, known for their elegance and courtly appearance, tend to have shorter krises.

Yakan's krises tend to have etched designs using lines and dots.

Samals' uses pearls and other embellishments such as precious shells.

Kalagans' have simple wooden handles and they usually adorn their krises with hairs, vines, etc.

Maguindanaos' have distinct handle design, so are the tausugs.

I just think that Minadanaoan krises should be surveyed by groups. Mixing and dating them is like mixing and dating weapons of different Indian tribes in America.

I don't also believe that Krises have traditional specific names. I don't know why Filipino weaponry researchers have coined names to call filipinio swords. If an english speaking maranao datu says his kris is a regalia kris, I don't think he means the name of his kris is "regalia."

There are muslims in Davao for instance who showed me "tul-id nga kris." that doen't mean that the name of that kris is tul-id. Tul-id means straight. They only mean that they have straight krises.

Naming Filipino weaponry specially among collectors and dealers is really problematic. I still see people saying itak sword or daga knife. That's just overkill.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Not necessarily. Krises used as regalia specially by maranaos, known for their elegance and courtly appearance, tend to have shorter krises.

I find it humorous that you answer Bill's post "not necessarily" since he clearly uses language like "you will always find exceptions", "in general" and "exception to the rule". Seems he is already saying "not necessarily" out of the gate.
Can you show us an example of these shorter Maranaos regalia kris? It should be noted that regalia by nature is generally passed down through many generation and while dress might be changed and updated these shorter swords you have "seen" might very well be much older kris there by fall right in step with the general point Bill was indeed making.

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Yakan's krises tend to have etched designs using lines and dots.

Samals' uses pearls and other embellishments such as precious shells.

Kalagans' have simple wooden handles and they usually adorn their krises with hairs, vines, etc.

Maguindanaos' have distinct handle design, so are the tausugs.

I think that if you would spend the time to do a little research with the search function on this forum you might discover that this is not necessarily new information to this group of collectors. I will add, however, that both the Maguindanaos and the Tausugs had more than just one hilt design. Also it is very common to find cross-over kris that might have the blade form one group with the handle from another, either because the blade was captured, gifted or traded. Classification of these kris becomes even more difficult.

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I just think that Minadanaoan krises should be surveyed by groups. Mixing and dating them is like mixing and dating weapons of different Indian tribes in America.

I don't think anybody here is disagreeing with this.

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I don't also believe that Krises have traditional specific names. I don't know why Filipino weaponry researchers have coined names to call filipinio swords. If an english speaking maranao datu says his kris is a regalia kris, I don't think he means the name of his kris is "regalia."

There are muslims in Davao for instance who showed me "tul-id nga kris." that doen't mean that the name of that kris is tul-id. Tul-id means straight. They only mean that they have straight krises.

Naming Filipino weaponry specially among collectors and dealers is really problematic. I still see people saying itak sword or daga knife. That's just overkill.

As for traditional names for kris, i don't know how specific the naming of kris got in the Philippines. In Indonesia regalia keris were all given personal names like Durga Dingkul, Si Tanda Langlang and Bangawan Canggu. These are names like you calling yourself Baganing Balyan.
But these other names we are using are merely descriptive names that determine both the profile (dhapur in Indonesia) of the blade and the origin, since these descriptive terms are specific to certain group's dialects. To say "Kalis Tulid" then not only descibes the kris as a straight blade, but also as one coming from the Tausug people. It is not the same at all as saying "daga knife" which is just redundant. It is a way of classifying a kris so that we as collectors get an immediate understanding of what shape and from what area the kris comes.
Perhaps you didn't find your way to this page on Federico's site:
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...aponsmain.html
Or this one where he describes the different parts of the kris in 3 major dialects.
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...o/diagram.html
BTW, you seem suspicious that Cato is one of Federico's references. I find it difficult to understand how anyone who has spent as much time as you obviously have studying the kris would not have come across Cato's book before. As i pointed out before, it might be flawed in places, but it is to my knowledge the only book published (at least in English) on the subject, so you probably would have found it quoted numerous times in your research. You might also note that Federico also uses many other references in his research for his site:
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...liography.html

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

Is he from Mindanao? he should check those words.

i'm ilonggo, and grew up in partly in Dadiangas (gensan) a couple years in Marbel, and some families in Bo. obrero, davao. but that shouldn't matter, or should it?

so, the development of kris in sulu is different compared to the one found in maguindanao and the one in zamboanga peninsula

.

can you tell me your source for this? and how can one differentiate the difference of a sulu kris, Zamboanga kris(?) and a maguindanaon kris?

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

I find it humorous that you answer Bill's post "not necessarily" since he clearly uses language like "you will always find exceptions", "in general" and "exception to the rule". Seems he is already saying "not necessarily" out of the gate.
Can you show us an example of these shorter Maranaos regalia kris? It should be noted that regalia by nature is generally passed down through many generation and while dress might be changed and updated these shorter swords you have "seen" might very well be much older kris there by fall right in step with the general point Bill was indeed making.

I think that if you would spend the time to do a little research with the search function on this forum you might discover that this is not necessarily new information to this group of collectors. I will add, however, that both the Maguindanaos and the Tausugs had more than just one hilt design. Also it is very common to find cross-over kris that might have the blade form one group with the handle from another, either because the blade was captured, gifted or traded. Classification of these kris becomes even more difficult.

I don't think anybody here is disagreeing with this.


As for traditional names for kris, i don't know how specific the naming of kris got in the Philippines. In Indonesia regalia keris were all given personal names like Durga Dingkul, Si Tanda Langlang and Bangawan Canggu. These are names like you calling yourself Baganing Balyan.
But these other names we are using are merely descriptive names that determine both the profile (dhapur in Indonesia) of the blade and the origin, since these descriptive terms are specific to certain group's dialects. To say "Kalis Tulid" then not only descibes the kris as a straight blade, but also as one coming from the Tausug people. It is not the same at all as saying "daga knife" which is just redundant. It is a way of classifying a kris so that we as collectors get an immediate understanding of what shape and from what area the kris comes.
Perhaps you didn't find your way to this page on Federico's site:
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...aponsmain.html
Or this one where he describes the different parts of the kris in 3 major dialects.
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...o/diagram.html
BTW, you seem suspicious that Cato is one of Federico's references. I find it difficult to understand how anyone who has spent as much time as you obviously have studying the kris would not have come across Cato's book before. As i pointed out before, it might be flawed in places, but it is to my knowledge the only book published (at least in English) on the subject, so you probably would have found it quoted numerous times in your research. You might also note that Federico also uses many other references in his research for his site:
http://home.earthlink.net/~federicom...liography.html

check this maranao blogger with a maranao shorter regalia kris on his side and on the wall. Maranao krises are very artsy and metallic. He has the same short krises I saw in Marawi city. I assume he is maranao because he was born in Davao. Muslims in Davao are mostly Maranao. There are samals but they live by the sea on stilt homes.

On surveying by groups. You said everyone knows that it should be that way, but there are still people like spunjer, who thinks krises found in sulu, maguindanao, lanao, sarangani, and zamboanga peninsula are all the same. Even their clothing and manner of dressing are not homogenous.

maranao kris

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

On surveying by groups. You said everyone knows that it should be that way, but there are still people like spunjer, who thinks krises found in sulu, maguindanao, lanao, sarangani, and zamboanga peninsula are all the same. Even their clothing and manner of dressing are not homogenous.

look, if you're trying to bring me down to your level, it ain't working. show me where i mentioned that those krises (sulu, maguindanao, lanao, sarangani, and zamboanga peninsula) are the same, otherwise, quit making up stuff because the more you post, the more you're showing your ignorance in the subject matter. again, as i've inquired earlier, i'm interested, and most likely some of the collectors here, in knowing how to differentiate the difference between a sulu kris, Zamboanga kris(?) and a maguindanaon kris.

so, the development of kris in sulu is different compared to the one found in maguindanao and the one in zamboanga peninsula

[baganing_balyan]

You asked this very obvious question:

"can you tell me your source for this? and how can one differentiate the difference of a sulu kris, Zamboanga kris(?) and a maguindanaon kris?"

Ignorance about kris? ha? are you blind? read my post well.

I'm even into genetic evidences already and you accused me of ignorance? mmmmm... let the readers judge.

I don't even know if you have met yakans, kalagans, and samals. yes, they are muslims too. I won't wonder because you are ilonggo gid.

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

I don't even know if you have met yakans, kalagans, and samals. yes, they are muslims too. I won't wonder because you are ilonggo gid.

ok, like i said, i won't go down to your level, but a word of advice, let's not get into insulting one's heritage here. it's not doing your position any good and really, it just shows your ignorance even more to a world wide audience.

but please, let's stick to the topic at hand:

can you tell me your source for the statement you made in which you said:

• the development of kris in sulu is different compared to the one found in maguindanao and the one in zamboanga peninsula

• and how can one differentiate the difference of a sulu kris, Zamboanga kris(?) and a maguindanaon kris?

also, please back up your accusations about me stating that "thinks krises found in sulu, maguindanao, lanao, sarangani, and zamboanga peninsula are all the same".

otherwise, you're just exposing your (lack of) knowledge and as i've mentioned earlier, ignorance in the subject matter.
yes, i've read your posts, and it's not making a lick of sense. really.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

check this maranao blogger with a maranao shorter regalia kris on his side and on the wall. Maranao krises are very artsy and metallic. He has the same short krises I saw in Marawi city. I assume he is maranao because he was born in Davao. Muslims in Davao are mostly Maranao. There are samals but they live by the sea on stilt homes.

Actually, i believe that what is by his side and also on the wall are larger 20th century punals or gunongs. This is pretty clear from the hilt and sheath style. I think you need to learn how to distinguish your Moro weaponry better.
There is one over sized keris (especially on the dress side) on that wall. Over-sized, very showy dress is common for these ritual regalia kris.
Can you tell me, have you read any of the reference books on Federico's list?

[baganing_balyan]

I did years of fieldwork in mindanao. I won't spoon-feed you with data. if you
check I only share tidbits. wait for my book.

Not making any sense? I can't blame you. you are used to unfounded, baseless conventions.

down to my level? mmmm I don't know you are up there?

Time to ignore you. Do your own research. Don't be bookish. I even ask my tausug friends to take genetic testing because I want to go deeper not just superficial stuff.

Don't blame me for your ignorance. I am just sharing what I have been doing not the full study or result, so people serious in researching mindanaoan weaponry will also conduct parallel research. There is nothing wrong in sharing seminal ideas, but for someone to nitpick because they stick to false conventions, then that is wrong.

spend time in muslim mindanao first, then you will be enlightened. I did. You won't know much about muslim weaponry in Marbel or Mlang.

[RhysMichael]

I don't know it it will help anyone with their research but Project Gutenburg has all 55 volumes of "The Philippine Islands, 1493-1803". Its described as detailing Explorations by Early Navigators, Descriptions of the Islands and Their Peoples, Their History and Records of the Catholic Missions, as Related in Contemporaneous Books and Manuscripts, Showing the Political, Economic, Commercial and Religious Conditions of Those Islands from Their Earliest Relations with European Nations to the Beginning of the Nineteenth Century I don't know if any of these will have descriptions of the kris you are discussing here or not. And as with most records written by explorers you have to interpret them in light of the time and bias of the people

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

Actually, i believe that what is by his side and also on the wall are larger 20th century punals or gungongs. This is pretty clear from the hilt and sheath style. I think you need to learn how to distinguish your Moro weaponry better.
There is one over sized keris (especially on the dress side) on that wall. Over-sized, very showy dress is common for these ritual regalia kris.
Can you tell me, have you read any of the reference books on Federico's list?

as i said, maranao kris used as a regalia is shorter, so length should not be used in dating.

I saw maranao krises like that in Marawi. There are still smiths today in lanao who make short krises with that kind of handle.

[David]

C'mon Baganing, you don't seem to know the difference between a punal and a kris. How can i possibly take any of your research seriously.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

as i said, maranao kris used as a regalia is shorter, so length should not be used in dating.

I saw maranao krises like that in Marawi.

In other words, these "shorter" kris you are citing are not actually kris.

[baganing_balyan]

Originally Posted by David

In other words, these "shorter" kris you are citing are not actually kris.

please do a research first what a punal or punyal is-- not from the book but from the people using it if there are.

[baganing_balyan]

that's what i have been saying all along-- the naming the mindanao weapons is extremely problematic. Some are coined to make them sound exotic.

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

please do a research first what a punal or punyal is-- not from the book but from the people using it if there are.

Sorry, Baganing, i have done my research. The photo you link to showing what you claim to be kris are not kris at all. I don't care if you believe me. You credibility is shot as far as i am concerned. You don't seem to truly have a grasp at Moro weaponry, you are merely grasping at straws. Good luck with that.

[baganing_balyan]

are you telling me that the guy in yellow attire was holding a knife on his side? estimate the length of his kris using his fist. is that a knife?

can you tell me what is punal or punyal?

[David]

Well Baganing, look at the hilt form. Look at the sheath form. These are both common forms for punal and gunong. We can't see the blades in these pictures. Modern punals have gotten to be quite long in some cases. We see them for sale on eBay all the time. I have personally held quite a few of these modern longer punals in my hands on many occasion. I can not see the blades in these pictures, but i can almost guarantee that these blades do not have an asymetric blade like the kris, nor a gangya (insert spelling of your choice). These are not kris. Period. Learn your Moro weapons and we can discuss this later.

[baganing_balyan]

that's what i have been telling you.. hilts, handle heads, and sheaths vary among muslim groups. I even saw samal krises with shells on their sheaths and pearls on the handles and kalagans' with vines and animal hairs.

Talk to a maranao, maybe you won't question his credibility. e-bay is not really a good source for research. I would have used the images there a long time ago.

[baganing_balyan]

since you are an expert, can you tell me what punal or punyal is? while you are at it, tell me also its etymology.

I can. can you?

[David]

Originally Posted by baganing_balyan

that's what i have been telling you.. hilts, handle heads, and sheaths vary among muslim groups. I even saw samal krises with shells on their sheaths and pearls on the handles and kalagans' with vines and animal hairs.

Talk to a maranao, maybe you won't question his credibility. e-bay is not really a good source for research. I would have used the images there a long time ago.

I am not saying at all that eBay is a good source for research and you know it. What i am saying is that you don't know a kris from a punal and your credibility is shot. Period.
Of course, hilts and sheath vary, but the hilts and sheaths in the picture you linked to clearly shows that these are not kris. I am sorry that you don't fully understand what a kris is, but these are a different type of blade that doesn't have the gangya (separate or otherwise) that is necessary to distinguish the blade as a kris. Some call these punals. Some call them gugongs. But they are not kris.